Athlon released it’s annual preseason All-ACC list about a week ago, and as you might expect, Pitt did not have many names on it.
Meanwhile at the newly-minted Those Guys You Know Pitt sports blog, a couple of young whippersnappers…er budding writers have had the chutzuph to name Kenny Pickett an All-ACC candidate. Looking back at Pitt’s QB history, thaaat could be a stretch. Yes, most of us are optimistic about Kenny’s opportunity to develop into a productive starter in 2019, but all-ACC? You’ve got to be a pretty heavy kool-aid drinks to buy into that.
Editor’s note: In all seriousness though, do check out this blog, these guys write with a good energy and they are entertaining. They remind me a lot of myself when I was that age….except I didn’t have blog and I had to write for one of those old-timey newspaper things that people actually had to pick up and read.
Nonetheless, all this all-ACC talk got me thinking. Primarily it got me thinking about Athlon’s track record of predicting Pitt’s all-ACC performers. Then it got me thinking about how many all-ACC guys Pitt has had ice time m. The next thing you know I had a couple of laptops in front of me and I’d fired up Excel. Here are the results:
Okay so before I get into my findings, I want to explain a couple of things.
- The blue bars are the total number of Pitt All-ACC Players in a given year. It includes first-team through honorable mention. If a player made it twice, (e.g. Tyler Boyd made 1st team receiver and 2nd team kick returner), it counts as two. That is consistent across all years. Also note that 2013 does not include “4th team” (i.e. honorable mention). This is because Athlon did not name 4th team preseason selections in 2013. They did name fourth team selections in all other years, and so 4th team is included from 2014 on.
- You are probably wondering what the heck “Star Power” is. It’s a metric I invented to help get a sense of how how the players were distributed between first, second, third teams and honorable mention. Its basically a weighted ranking of the players. A first team selection is awarded 4 points of “star power”. An honorable mention selection is awarded 1 point. I then add up all the points. Higher “Star Power” is better. Six first teamers would have a star power of 24. Six honorable mentions would have a star power of 6. As you can see, big difference!
Okay now that the boring stuff is out of the way…there are a couple of obvious takeaways here.
First: Pitt has consistently outperformed Athlon’s predicitions, at least as far as total # of all ACC selections. And Pitt has generally outperformed Athlon in terms of star power. This could be because Pitt’s coaching staff is just great at getting the most out of their players and developing unheralded guys, or could be because the national media generally gives Pitt very little respect. The truth is that its probably a little of both. And in many ways, Pitt probably is getting exactly what it earns in these pre-season rankings. Case in point, Athlon went all-in on Pitt in 2017 (9 pre-season All-ACC selections, 24 Star Power!). In typical Pitt fashion we fell flat on our face and finished 5-7. Somehow we placed 9 guys on the team that year, but notice how our star power was 18, instead of the 24 Athlon predicted. That means a lot of 3rd team and Honorable Mentions, where Athlon was predicting more 1st and 2nd teamers.
Second: Despite what many of the naysayers have been saying, this chart indicates that the staff has been developing talent over time. Here is the number of actual All-ACC performers over time
3, 5, 8, 10, 9, 12.
That is a pretty robust trend. If you look at some of the names in the last two years, you will see a lot of three (and sometimes two) star guys who have developed into All-Conference performers (Ollison, Weaver Herndon, Jackson, Ffrench, Dintino, etc). This is a very good thing for the Program and it needs to continue.
Star Power on the other hand, has peaked and then dropped off. Here is the trend:
9, 17, 22, 27, 18, 20.
The “27” by the way happened in 2016. We had four first teamers (James Connor, Dorian Johnson, Quadree Henderson and Ejuan Price) and two second teamers (Adam Bisnowaty and Jordan Whitehead), which really pushed the score up. If the ACC hadn’t had a bumper crop of quarterbacks in 2016 Pitt’s star power would have been even higher. Nathan Peterman finished first in ACC quarterback rating and threw 27 TD’s, but alas, Lamar Jackson, DeShaun Watson and Mitch Trubisky all happened to be in the league and sucked up all of the All-ACC votes. Of course all three happen to be current NFL starters, so kind of tough to argue with how it all shook out.
Last year’s “20” Star Power was in interesting one as well. Pitt landed exactly zero first teamers, but had six honorable mentions. Quantity over quality is one way to say it, but a balanced team with fewer glaring weaknesses (but also less bona-fide superstars) is another way to say it. No matter how you say it, 2018’s “no name everything” was good enough to get us a 6-2 mark in the Coastal and win us the Division title. (Controversy alert…). Time will tell if this approach holds true in future seasons.
So what can we expect in 2019? First, I think we can safely expect some guys who aren’t on Athlon’s radar to emerge as honorable mention or even third team All-ACC when the season is over. During Pat Narduzzi’s tenure, Athon has named 6 or fewer Pitt players to the All ACC team three times (not counting this year). And guess what? Pitt has overperformed vs Athlon’s ratings EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Unless Pat Narduzzi and company have suddenly stopped coaching (unlikely) or have lost the team (also extremely unlikely) we should expect him to overperform again. (Disclaimer…Yes I know this is Pitt and I’m calling no-whammy no jinx here, crossing myself three times and throwing salt over my left shoulder. I’ve also decided to sacrifice a small chicken to the football gods in hopes that they overlook this brazen optimism.)
Two, I think Pitt has a pretty decent shot at landing double digit guys on the All-ACC team at the end of the year. It’s happened two out of the last three years. And if we’d had any semblance of a quarterback in 2017 it might have happened three out of the last three years. Now will one of our 2019 all-ACC’s be Kenny Pickett? That is debatable and quite frankly unlikely. Pit has placed 47 young men on the all ACC team in the last six years. Not one of them has been a quarterback. With that being said, if the Pickett Pipe Dream does happen to come true, I’ll be the first one to celebrate.
Hail to Pitt
Michaelangelo Monteleone
PS – Pitt actually does have one all-ACC quarterback and that is Rick Caldwell (Erie Express), who organizes the annual Pitt POV golf outing. Rick quarterbacked the “FRANKCAN CUP” yesterday and by all accounts the event was a big success. Congrats to the winning team, which included Upitt and Jay…These guys are consistently holding Pitt’s football program to a higher standard so it appears they hold their golf game to a higher standard as well! Well played gentlemen!
pittpov.com 
Congrats to winners! As well to all participants who got to play on a beautiful day in PA (in a month that saw 21 rain days)
Sadly …. not only has the majority of PA FB recruits migrated from WPa to EPa … so has the FRANLCAM CUP. Is this indicative of attendance issue … too many alums leaving town?
I expect Pickett and the pass game to be improved but will be shocked if he ends up 2nd team All-ACC. Note that 1st team is not even a remote thought with Trevor Lawrence around
June marks the beginning of rattlesnake season in PA. Several hunts are scheduled around the state for the next 2 months, and Sinnemahoning (wherever that is) has expanded its hunt to 3 days. Warning: no hunting allowed west of Ret 15 or south o I-81 to Maryland line. License is $25 for PA and $50 for non-residents. Thus, while u FRANKCAMERS are still around, equipped with 64 degree wedges … go have some fun.
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I thought Eric (missingwlat) was playing with those guys. Hope all is great Eric and congrats to the winners. Also glad to see Mark (Upitt) made to the outing. Great job guys and great job to Rick and Fran!
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It just dawned on me that when Pitt joined the ACC in 2013, the pre-season ACC all-conference team as voted by the ACC sportswriters had Aaron Donald on the 2nd team. And to this day, if you listen to ESPNU or read ACC blogs or national sports columns, Pitt is considered a just one of those teams from the north.
I remember when Pitt was often considered as a team from the west for the 1st 2 decades in the BE
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MM — excellent article. Like the research and the graph. I hope and suspect that Coach Whipple’s approach is going to elevate the profile of a couple of Pitt’s offensive skill players… And I hope and suspect that Coach Bates is going to do the same for a couple of defensive players.
Congrats to the golf outing winners — good to see Jay and a former Pitt baseballer (or two?) in the winner’s circle. Looks like some bombers on that team but someone was making putts…
Another great job by Rick Caldwell, and I’m sure Fran helped out – he always does…
Go Pitt.
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Ah yes I am sorry Fran you need to get some credit!
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As Frank Sinatra sang….Here’s to the winners! Kudos gentlemen.
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The group photo above is an impressive looking group and I have to say. What other blog of any type has a family like the POV has. < No question mark at the end of the sentence because it wasn’t a question. Am I crazy or is this the first time anyone’s ever heard of something quite as unique as this family? or C both. 🙂 Great job guys…………. ike
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Well done, Maestro. You have confirmed something I have thought for the past 3-4 years. This staff can coach up lower rated recruits.
HCPC left Nard a team full of “MAC” recruits (except for “hogs”)- about all we heard on this blog during the Chryst years was “MAC Recruits”, and all we’ve heard since is, “Recruit 3s, get 3 results”. And yet, with such low quality recruits, these coaches have “coached them up” (several) to all-league potential.
I’ve said before, we’ve gotta win before we attract 4* and 5* players. I think this staff is on the way to achieving more wins with 3* talent, and subsequently higher quality recruits.
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Great job, MM! I think it puts to rest the idea that Narduzzi and assistant coaches don’t develop players. This also exposes the Pitt recruiting strategy- to recruit slightly above average players and then coach them up to be better. It also eliminates much of the benefit from recruiting star power. We are not getting players on the covers of the sports magazines or on ESPN, which costs Pitt a great deal in free publicity.
It still takes great players to win conference titles, and Pitt doesn’t get enough of them. Having a reasonable number of third team and honorable mentions will get you an 8 win season, but it takes some star power to get to 10 wins.
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exactly
you need blue chips to reach the promised land of 10-11 wins
you need those 1st team ACC or all-americans
those elite players help market and sell the program
what fan wants to see an honorable mention?
remember when Pitt was in the hunt for a Big East championship and they had Larry the Great, they averaged 57k at Heinz. they also have a real good home schedule but still. People will come out to see greatness.
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Very true VoR but I feel if PITT gets 22 three star players in a recruiting class you will find………. some attrition right away, a few players not contributing but staying, some players playing like three star players and a few that play like 4 star players. What I’m saying is the star system is subjective and PITT gets their fair share of really good players that aren’t 4* labeled. AD, JC and Weaver as examples. (there are plenty more) I for one just do not put as much at stock as others with recruiting ranking. For two reasons. One what I just mentioned and two, this is how PITT is forced to recruit. All in all, I think PITT is better off right now than they have been in years with depth and budding talent.
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I see where PSU lost national recruit WR Fleming from their own backyard to Ohio State.
If he didn’t go to PSU, I’m surprised he didn’t go south.
BTW, I read where the Nits are 3-12 against Ohio State, Michigan and Michigan State since 2014. And they’ve had some “star power” players during that time. The cult must be getting restless…
Go Pitt.
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thats what happens when star power might be over-rated, under-utilized, and poorly coached
if Pitt recruited like the Pedos, we would see 11 win seasons
Franklin is horrible at coaching but he is a great recruiter
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Fleming visited 12 times
and on each visit I am 100% certain there were boosters around…you know what that means
so what did tOSU give him?
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Great article MM, you point out exactly how I feel about what’s going on with Narduzzi. Thanks!
OK, I have to make a goofy observation here. It appears as if Mark (Upitt) has two completely different outfits on yesterday. Did Jay give you a make over Mark? 🙂
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The group photo was Mark in street cloths because he just barely made the event after retrieving his luggage from the re-routed flight from Texas.
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Mark is a tiger, didn’t you have some logistic problems at last years golf outing as well Mark?
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Another observation. Fran cannot be serious in a photo op. You make me laugh Fran.
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how does this compare with other schools. Unless you are Clemson, FSU or Miami, the vast majority of your recruits are 3 stars. So every school develops its players. My question is by how much.
There are close to 100 ACC players on the ACC team (1st to 3rd plus HM). That means on average, each school places about 7 on this list. Under Narduzzi, its been slightly above average. But we dont see the star power and thats important.
Thats how you break the cycle of 6-8 wins. You do need some 1st team ACC players. HM doesnt cut it.
I dont see many (high %) of 3 stars turning into 1st team ACC players. And thats really from any coach. In the end you need talent to win and Pitt doesnt have enough.
you can always field a team of high potential 3’s that get used right and developed correctly and probably eke out 8-9 win seasons. But you need blue chippers to get you to the promised land of 10-11 wins consistently (fact for 95% of P-5 teams)
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how many beers can fit in that FRANKCAN trophy?
i see its not quite big enough for a….
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Thanks for another insightful article. I’ve been sitting on the couch for a while, twiddling my thumbs waiting.
If Pitt can coach up 3* players like this, imagine how some 4 or 5*s could turn out.
I used to play golf but my cigar smoking and beer drinking skills far exceeded my game so I gave it up.
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As I walk in the house from the POV outing 5 minutes ago…
Me: Hi, honey.
Wife: Well…you look a little rough
3.5 hrs to get up to Lancaster yesterday AM and 4.5 hrs to get back – I-95 around DC sucks btw.
Great outing with great folks, great post-tourney libations and meal – excellent job, Rick.
Richman, my buddy Al and I took an Uber into town for some nightlife. The Uber was an Amish horse and buggy with turn signals. I can vouch that we found the seediest bar in the area.
Just kidding about the buggy, but saw about a dozen of them going up and down the road on my way home today.
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You partied w Richman and are still alive to tell the tale? I’m impressed. I played a round of gold with him and needed 5 scotches and 12 hours of sleep!
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This is rather misleading even if it is factually true.
Pitt put exactly zero players on the All-ACC 1st team and only two on the 2nd team (Ollison & Millin).
Anything after that is basically charity given to every school in the conference. I know how that works because I have had ACC credentials with media emails and mailings over the last three years and have discussed this with actual voting media members. What happens with 3rd team and especially honorable mention is the voters try to have all teams represented.
But what I see here that is truly telling is that on all of the defensive 1st, 2nd and 3rd All-ACC team levels Pitt was completely shut out. Not one of the “Defensive Guru’s” kids were recognized at all.
Only two Pitt defenders were listed and they were Jackson and Hamlin at Honorable Mention. So out of 48 total defensive slots we filled exactly two.
That screams mediocre at best reality to me folks.
http://theacc.com/news/2018/11/26/2018-all-acc-football-team-announced.aspx
This is why I just can’t agree with fans who look at our 2019 defensive roster and proclaim that we ‘have more depth than in many years‘. Bodies do not equal talented depth.
Combine that with the fact that not one high school recruit who actually was convinced by and committed to Narduzzi in his first four years has made 1st or 2nd team All-ACC since Narduzzi has been HC…and only one player, Morrison at 3rd team, did at any level this season.
That is truly poor recruiting in my opinion and points directly to the reasons for the last two non-winning seasons.
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So did you have a good time at the golf outing Reed?
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Haha
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It wasn’t sunny enough, plus the bugs. There were bugs to complain about, weren’t there?
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And yet our third team and honorable mentions have ballooned in recent years. Why?
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Again, those players were recruited by and committed to another coaches mostly.
Of those you mention.., Herndon, Aston, Bookser, and Dintino all committed to Chryst.
Only honorable mention Ffrench and Hamlin committed to Narduzzi.
Point being as I stated earlier…this coach isn’t landing high impact recruits. We haven’t seen one recruit who he actually got to commit to Pitt reach stardom yet after four recruiting classes.
Now, if you are content with his transfers vice HS recruiting that’s fine. Maybe this year we’ll see some players he scouted, pursued, got to commit then had the kid sign on the dotted line become bona fide star game changers but it hasn’t happened yet.
I thought Pickett would be his first but that didn’t happen…yet.
But something has to happen soon or we are going to keep playing .500 ball
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Yet we all know Weaver and Jackson are worthy of first or second team honors. We also know we have depth at all 11 positions so being worried about who is being mentioned for honors I’ll leave for others to debate as a reflection of our head coach.
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Nate – the four 1st and 2nd string All-ACC DEs averaged 52 tackles with 17 TFLs and 10 sacks each…
Weaver had 31 tackles with 14 TFLs and 6.5 sacks… not really 1st or 2nd team All-ACC material.
Jackson matches up well with the 2nd team All-ACC though… he could have been on there but was honorable mention.
It’s good we have them both coming back.
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JoeL… your Uber buggy driver- was her name Ethel Yoder?????
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At that point Biggie, maybe JoeL thought he was Mr Ed?
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One thinks that we are still considered an ACC outsider new guy. North of the Mason Dixon Line and a plane flight away from Greensboro. Miami, BC and VT have been there longer than us, Cuse or Lou.
I doubt that this thinking changes when the existing ACC brass eventually move on. Maybe a future new big 4 conference group will align everyone into their proper geographic area.
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Great article. You or someone could actually use it to determine which coaches are getting the most star power out of their stars.
If we consider rivals to be relatively accurate in their ratings, you could use a players rivals ranking and subtract it from their all acc position.
For example if Clemson had a 4 star on the 1st all acc team, then you would subtract 3 from 4 and get a +1. Where as if Pitt has a 3 star that makes 4th team, then one minus two equals -1.
Would be interesting to see where the teams land and how the results are interpreted.
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Good idea but tons of work. Would have to research every teams Rivals recruiting data for 5 years. I have time but I wouldn’t want to do it.
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Also, congratulations to all of the golfers.
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I saw an article that was hyping up Penn state players in the NFL. I looked it up and saw 35 players. I was shocked and then figured I’d at least compare defensive backs for bragging rights. Well that same site showed 34 players from Pitt. Apparently you just have to be working to make a team.
Regardless so many 4* recruits and they have us by 1? Apparently they either destroy 4* ability or we do well with what we get.
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It’s all crap. Players get bumped up or down depending on which team they commit to and even worse. Many pay for their rating. Remember, recruiting sites are trying to make money. College coaches and football teams don’t need them anymore. They are all rags…………
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Ike – you are badly mistaken about this.
Look at the 4* and 5* SR and JR HS recruits we offer scholarships to each year who live very far away – in 2019 we had out over 20+ offers to HS kids as far away as CA, WA, TX and Hawaii’.
Do you actually think Pitt sends their recruiting staff all over the US starting from these kids’ HS JR years on and they travel to sit and watch all the Pitt-possible offered recruits play ball games? Of course we don’t. We don’t have anywhere near the staffing or budget to do so.
Pitt absolutely uses recruiting sites rating info to do the distant scouting for them – they also rely heavily on recruiting pay-sites like HUDL to view those far away kids’ highlight videos – otherwise we wouldn’t be offering those distant kids at all.
What Pitt does – and every other school except possibly Alabama does – is look at the highly 4* & 5* rated HS players and then pick and choose to offer them or not. Pitt pretty much uses the shotgun effect and keeps their fingers crossed that a blue chip kid will actually sign on – which hasn’t been happening lately much at all having gotten only two (2!) 4* kids out of 39 recruits over the last two classes.
The only recruiting site that takes money from recruits and families is HUDL and they then post up videos and background the recruits want to post there – none of the other site do that.
I have had numerous detailed discussions with recruiters both in PGH and in Maryland along with recruiting sites’ writers at Pitt practices about this subject over the years and can say you are most definitely wrong about this.
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Reed, so what do you make of 48 4 & 5* recruits from dairy land in the past 4 years? Nits as pointed out are 3&12 against their big “rivals”. Fact is that stars increase your chance of going pro yet they just aren’t getting there more than Pitt? Okay 1 more.
Complain all you want about Pitt. If you were a state fan, well you might tip a cow on yourself.
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I don’t care one bit about who or what goes into the NFL…not one bit.
What I care about is what kids get recruited to Pitt – then how well they play and contribute to Pitt wins on the field of play.
Those 4* and 5* PSU kids contributed to a 20-6 record over the past two years.
Our lack of 4* and 5* kids gave us a 12-14 record.
Which would you rather have?
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Like Beville committing to Pitt then getting his 4th star? Didn’t hear anyone complain that that was hinkey…
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Didn’t read or hear anyone saying Narduzzi getting a 4* either. It works both ways.
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Great article.
My spreadsheet is only for post season. (Of course I have a spreadsheet for All ACC but it only goes back to 2015 (PN 1’st season)).
Mike check 2018. I have 13. 2-2’nd team Off, 4-3’rd team Off, 5-HM Off (Ffrench twice) & 2 HM Def.
Total of 117 All ACC total in 2018. 478 in the 4 years.
By school for 2018 BC-13, Clempsum-21, FSU-5, Louisville-“0”, NC State-9, Syracuse-11 & Wake-8. 67 for the Atlantic. Duke-6, Ga. Tech-2, Miami-11, N. Car.-4 PITT-13, Va.- 8 Va. Tech 6. Total of 57.for the coastal.
More stuff to follow for 2018.
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outside of clemscum, every school is a chump
utter garbage that would be destroyed in every conference save the pac 10
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Besides the Pac12, I would add the Big12.
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Time for more conjecture:
Except for the most jaded, everyone else agrees our recruiting has underperformed.
Why?
Coaching?
Yellow seats?
Facilities?
Academics?
Lack of Western PA talent?
Mediocre record?
There have been a plethora of local kids who won’t even sniff in our direction.
And, thoughts that kids who don’t go to Pitt are on the take is just sour grapes, I M O.
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coaching yes
yellow seats yes
facilities yes
academics no
lack of WPA talent – I’ve shown PA talent has been consistent (9 blue chips each year) for the last 15 years…no excuse; plenty of neighboring states all within an easy drive for the parents that have the talent….again, no excuse
record – yes (you need to be ranked every week and come years end…thats what recruits see in the media and on TV)
Its 70% coaching
30% everything else
look at what Ga Tech and NC are reeling in so far with new coaches
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The most common question I get when I say I’m a Pitt fan is “How can Pitt put so many players into the NFL and still suck?”
Valid question folks…
So spare me who goes where after Pitt. Hell, Nick Grigsby did almost nothing at Pitt and played in the NFL…what does that tell you?
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That tells me it takes 11 players on the both sides of the ball to be successful if football. Last I looked football was a team sport. And any weak link in that team can be exploited by the competition.
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No difference makers at QB, not enough depth, not enough guys making plays when it matters most. Maybe it is a pride thing. Kids don’t care about the four letters on the helmet. I hate how those kids take huge pride in wearing the uniform in Happy Valley.
That starts up top with the administration. Pitt’s simply does not care enough for it to trickle down to where everyone has pride on Saturday. The attitude is “Sure we got pummeled today, but boy the Philosophy department is in the uptick.” The fans suck, too. “I’d rather lose to LSU at home than beat Miami (OH).” When you’d rather lose than win, there is a huge problem.
Back to on the field. QB is the biggest issue IMO. Too many decent guys, not enough difference makers.
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I’m not sure?
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Pitt Al…I don’t get the point you are trying to make about PSU. Here is what they did in their conference over the last two years
2018: B10 record was 6-3 (beat Wisconsin & also killed Pitt). 9-4 overall
2017: B10 record was 7-2 (beat Pitt and won bowl game). 11-2 overall.
Sorry, but I don’t see where there is any problem with that at all. Both years with more wins than we have had since a decade ago.
Look when a horrid team like North Carolina has a total of 5 wins in the last two seasons…and 2 of them were against Pitt, I just don’t feel there is a whole lot to brag about or to compare to a program that won 20 games in that time period.
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Reed, it tells me what we’ve all been saying- Pitt gets 3* kids who need time to develop. By the time they are good they are gone.
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OK, see a problem with that?
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1’st & 2’nd teams by school. Listing 1’st, 2’nd, total. For 1’st & 2’nd teams, there was a total of 54 selections. (15 Off., 12 Def. per team. 2 teams.
BC 4,2,6 Clempsum 5,7,12 FSU 1,0,1 L’ville 0,0,0 NC St. 6,1,7 Cuse 3,3,6, Wake 2,3,5 Atlantic 21,16,37
Duke 1,1,2 Ga. Tech 1,1,2 Miami 1,4,5 N. Car 0,1,1 Pitt 0,2,2 Va. 3,0,3 Va. Tech 0,2,2 Coastal 6, 11, 17
There is going to be a large turnover in All ACC teams as 49.6% (58) of all 117 are are classified as seniors or grads.
I wish I could figure out how to copy from excel & paste to WordPress.
BTW, true freshmen or redshirt freshmen have made up on average 6.28% of all selections. Some are true stars. Others are flash in the pan.
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Hold on…I remember when this article came out about no Pitt players being named to the 2018 All-ACC preseason team and the fan’s outrage about Pitt getting no respect.
https://archive.triblive.com/sports/college/pitt/13898108-85/no-pitt-players-named-to-all-acc-preseason-team
Then what happens is the post-season All-ACC team is announced and we don’t have anyone on it…yet fans complain.
Now the nice thing is that in the article the pundits were completely wrong about Pitt finishing 5th in the Coastal so that’s one for us in the plus column!
Don’t get me wrong folks, I’m glad we won the Coastal as it was a bright spot in an otherwise disappointing season. But I’m just not convinced that fact alone will have a continuing positive impact in the future like a winning season coupled with a bowl win would do.
If we could have actually outscored Stanford instead of just out playing them then an 8-6 season with a bowl win and division champs has a much better ring to it.
Recruiters will tell you that perception is everything in college ball…and just a few plays here and there make a huge difference.
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Pitt has only been ranked like for 5 weeks in the last 7 years. Thats horrible. Recruits see the ranking numbers every week. Thats how you market. Its banging the customer in the head repeatedly. Does anyone at Pitt have a Marketing degree…outside Pitt? But we dont have to worry about players skipping class or taking fake classes or throwing A-holes thru windows. OK
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go back the last 25 years. Pitt was ranked throughout the 00s … 2002/04/08/09 … most notably, and parts of other years for a couple weeks, but aside from that, Pitt has been absent.
Note that I do not pay attendance to early rankings; in 05, Pitt was pre-season ranked and then lost to ND and Ohio U.
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pre-season rankings help create buzz for the upcoming season
or some player that you can market as an all-american candidate
and then Heather wonders why season ticket sales are down
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Ike, I’m going to hold an “ex-POV Bowling Tournament” soon with TX Panther, UPitt, Jason, myself and other reality based commenters. You are invited to tell your side of the story…😉
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I got un-realitied by reed…..drats!
@Tex – I wouldn’t be so quick to say we shouldn’t worry about questionable academics. That is another area that is a scam in college athletics. The athlete students that get all ACC academics are the ones that actually go to class and try. Let’s not get swept away by a statistic that is also manipulated.
@portland pitt – solid point, however the dairy lost to schools that got more 4 and 5 star recruits then they did so it actually proves the point that much further. You need 4 stars and 5 stars to win consistently. Pitt does not win consistently. We win at a mediocre pace. Would your boss allow you to be mediocre every year or would you have to answer for that? Pitt is spending money now so mediocre is not acceptable. We won the coastal, yay! We beat out the teams that were really, really bad. Pitt was just mediocre at 7-7. That was the record.
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No, memory doesn’t serve me well… (Que Ike for a The Band video).
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Heather likes to distract by making the focus on grades, service projects and graduation rates so the attention is off poor attendance and mediocre record. What is tougher to manipulate is the record on the field yet Heather manipulates it by scheduling one of the toughest OOC schedules every year.
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Ehh, I think I’ll pass on the bowling Reed but thanks for the invite. You can all be ex’s I could care less. Winning the division is reality and you guys don’t want to acknowledge it. I played in a duck pin bowling leauge for years though. I wasn’t all that great at that either.
My heart says go for it but my knees say no. But Reed… I’ll still race you in a 30 yard dash at a PIT tailgate next year.
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Reed most of us would strongly disagree you guys are reality based posters. Tex thinks pitt should be winning ten games a year and u and upitt (despite claiming otherwise) would get rid of the winningest first four year coach in 35 years. Spare me the reality nonsense. Your definition of reality is hating Narduzzi.
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this is the path to 10 wins:
1) find a QB
2) recruit like Va Tech (50% of recruits in the class rated 5.7 and above…amounts to around four 4 stars each year)
3) play a softer OOC schedule
4) go 3-1 in OOC, 6-2 in ACC, win your bowl
then do this every year
It can be done and really isnt too difficult. Good players, good coaches and a reasonable schedule
what is difficult is Pitt being mediocre for this long and only having the team ranked for 5 weeks in the past 7-8 years despite spending good money on coaches and improvements in facilities
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I would pay good money to see that 30 yard dash! We could have some First Responders on the premises as a precaution🚑
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Pitt is spending like a drunken sailor and gets 100% support the other coaches didn’t get and has a Puppet AD and Narduzzi still goes 5-7 in 2017 and 7-7 in 2018. So with his stellar recruits he is 12-14 in the last 2 years. He is killing it and won the strong coastal at 7-7. Give King Pat a medal.
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If I didn’t know Mark personally, I would have assumed that there was some sarcasm mixed in with his overt praise of our head coach.😂
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Speaking of James Conner (see above)… It seems he is taking his SLIM DOWN regimen to a new level in his quest to make it as an NFL Back.
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Determined to overcome injuries that ended his rookie season and interrupted his second, Conner has focused on his conditioning in the offseason. He is a slimmed-down version of the 233-pounder who is listed on the Steelers roster, although Conner doesn’t like specifying his weight because it fluctuates throughout the year.
Trib Review
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As I’ve noted… the problem is that his commitment to staying LIGHT to maximize quickness
could become a losing proposition.
At Pitt, Conner was his very best as a BIG Back capable of both doling out punishment and taking it. This is what made him what he was when he was his absolute best. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7GBH0mDQgo
I get it that playing at 250 is not going to work for him in the NFL. But playing at 220 might not either. I say this given Conner’s tendency to take shots and suffer the injuries that come as a result.
You are what you are. And I’m afraid the NFL might just not be the place for James Conner the Runningback.
Now a 250 pound Outside Linebacker? Well, that could be something totally different.
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Of course, this is what I said when the Steelers drafted him.
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Upitt…of course you use half his record and ignore the SOS he played to fit your narrative. Nobody is saying he is dabo or deserves a medal. He just doesn’t deserve to be fired like you “reality” posters believe.
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Hey Reed, I expect all you ‘Reality’ bowlers to score > 250
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I refuse to participate in any sport where ultimately I could end up in the gutter. Just wouldn’t be prudent.
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Pitt could get Dabo to coach, all they need to do is buy out his $92 million contract.
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According to tex in “reality land” if we would get a multiuse OCS we would be rich and could probably buy out dabo’s contract.
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we would be less revenue challenged
are we collecting 100% of the revenues playing at heinz? the full take on ticket sales, concessions, parking and merchandising?
we arent getting any share of naming rights, licensing, and missing out on certain advertising and sponsorships because Pitt is a renter
A MPC would have allowed Pitt to host the college wrestling tourney, the volleyball tourney, a regional NCAA, the Frozen 4 hockey and a host of other events such as US soccer qualifiers, high school tournaments, exhibitions, concerts
Pitt’s revenues would increase and it would greatly help them balance their operating budget and maybe become slightly profitable. Pitt wouldnt be rich. Pitt would be middle class. But right now Pitt is poor and using a welfare check to pretend differently.
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I am with you on wanting an OCS badly tex. I am just not quite as bullish on the amount of revenue it would produce. But it would be a game changer for the program imo.
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some simple math and all based on reasonable guestimates
naming rights over 30 years would amount to roughly $60M or $2M annually
licensing, sponsorships, advertising would amount to several extra millions each year because Pitt would own the facility. Lets say conservatively, thats another $2M annually
Then you can rent this stadium out. Lets say once per year, you are able to host some big NCAA event (frozen 4, volleyball or wrestling championship, NCAA basketball, other). Thats 60,000 fans over 2-3 days and another $3M roughly in extra revenue (tickets, concessions, hotel, parking, merchandise).
then you have exhibitions, tournaments and high school events…world cup soccer qualifiers, high school tournaments, concerts, science fairs, whatever
thats another $3M conservatively
and if this facility is always being used and seen by a diversity of people, you get a ton of advertisers and sponsors that want to participate
you can see that these extra revenue projections which I think are very conservative, can easily put Pitt back in black and cover the interest payments. Pitt may even be able to realize a few million in profit each year…only about 15 schools can do this.
and thats just the revenue side of the equation. Doesnt even consider how other intangible things will also be improved like school spirit and pride and campus recognition. All leading to even more dollars via sponsorships, student applicants and alumni donations.
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Haha…is that why reality TV is shows like the Bachelorette?
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Pittman2003,
Oooooohhhhhh I hate Narduzzi so much! It’s gotten to the point that I have to use facts to show how just much.
Noticed that you don’t read my comments very well. For instance I have never written the following:
*We should win 10 games a year.
*Narduzzi should be fired.
*Winning the Coastal wasn’t a good thing.
Etc…
What I have written is that I feel Narduzzi has done a great job in student-athlete affairs including having no player arrests for at least two years. See, to me that is important as winning football games and I wouldn’t trade what he has done in that arena for DW’s player arrests when he was winning 9 or 10 games.
I do feel that PN isn’t as good at actual football work as some fans think. I believe his recruiting is poor and his in-game management is shaky.
I think his reliance on transfers shows that he hasn’t developed the depth that fans think he has…and I’ll bet a beer this LB from Florida starts sooner rather than later and he’s done nothing in his career so far to make me happy about that.
If you think not winning more games then you lose in two straight years, either not getting to a bowl or getting a bowl and losing in it (again) and not having even one kid he has recruited out of HS becoming a star player is the mark of a good HC then thats fine. Throw in getting only two 4* recruits over the last two years and having the class of 2018 averging less than 3*s…
Wait! Forgot about losing three straight games to end the season while getting outscored 80-26 along with being the only ACC team a horrid NC won against in two years… Add-in getting completely embarrassed by our long-term in-state rival while they kicked our asses to a tune of 51-6 both on national TV and on our home field.
See, I don’t think those are positive results at all. But gee…those are facts, aren’t they? Tell me, didn’t you expect a lot more from him in his 3rd and 4th years at the helm?
Of course he had good things happen also; as l wrote earlier winning the Coastal is a feather in his cap… But I’d trade that for actually winning against those two beatable teams in Miami and Stanford and finishng 9-5 with a bowl win and being ranked in the Top 25.
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Reed I have heard your talking points to negatively spin Narduzzi countless times. I am just disagreeing that you are “reality based.” I can agree to disagree.
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I don’t know what there is to disagree with what Reed wrote. Pretty much indisputable. Actually what he wrote was just facts. This is not to say that there aren’t facts that suggest PN is doing a decent job as HC.
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*We should win 10 games a year.
I expect between 5 and 9 but winning 10 games isnt too difficult with the right OOC and if you win your bowl game – see Syracuse. But Heather is clueless on OOC and Narduzzi cant win a bowl to save his life.
*Narduzzi should be fired.
He has 4 years left on his contract and the buyout goes down every year. With another 7 win season, I think you have to start seriously thinking about it. He’s getting paid a ton of money for being mediocre and helping draw small crowds at Heinz. How are football donations doing after 4 years with him in charge?
*Winning the Coastal wasn’t a good thing.
If you believe in program markers, then it was a good thing but lets not lose sight it was the weakest division in all of P-5. It was a division title and not the championship. Pitt was only 4-2 in their garbage division…beaten by one of the worst P-5 teams and blown out by Miami.
Etc…Yes – Pitt should tarp Heinz, begin a feasibility study for a MPC, and Narduzzi needs to recruit some 4 stars. Did I miss anything? Oh yes – the BoT needs a complete makeover, Heather needs to stop vacationing at OBX and Pitt got lucky because Dungey was hung-over
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Now that I’ve been bitch slapped back into the reality of how bad Pitt’s football program actually is by our more sensible posters, I can now get on with my Sunday morning with the correct attitude of total despair.
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Haha
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How did I guess that it was Ike who liked your post.
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Dr. Tom … I’m going to ruin your morning with optimism.
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I see Virginia and Miami as the teams to beat. Thats why that game with Virginia at Heinz is so important. If Pitt wins, theres a good chance Pitt wins the Coastal. If Pitt loses, I really dont see how Pitt wins.
So if this guy is correct, does this mean another 7-7 season?
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I hope not. That’s not progress. More wins and a title is the next step. Building to ten wins, eventually.
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No – high probability we beat UCF and should be an even match vs the pedo enablers (our 3* vets vs their 4&5* pups).
We beat UVA, Duke, Cuse GT & VT.
Ohio and Delaware should be wins.
That’s 9 wins.
UNC & BC are toss ups (ikr).
The only one I am less than 50% on the probability of winning is Miami.
If you had to choose – beat psuX or win a bowl game?
No brained for me – psuX!
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A PSUx win over a bowl win any day especially since this will probably be the last game played for another 20 years
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Enjoying some fun reads this morning. Looks like the threeeeeee straight losses to end the season last year has reinvigorated some our reality posters. We be gettin real now!
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Yes it sure did even some of the reality posters that left us when it was clear Pitt would win the Coastal last year. That was a dose of reality they choose not to comment on at the time I guess.
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^^ This is actually reality and real…….. it happened.
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Reed, you may have to remind me but I’ll take that bet on the linebacker.
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Sign my up for the for the bowling tournament. I am with Reed and Upitt.
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If it is raining outside and I say it is raining then I’m negative. I see how it works. The reason Pitt is so average to below average is because fans accept it and say wait till next year, etc. Next year comes and more excuses and then another wait till next year. Now our hopes are on Pappy OC who wears velcro shoes and Gorilla Glue because he is the Defense Whisperer.
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Pitt does the bare minimum to keep membership in the ACC and to get Heinz at 50% capacity
The ACC welfare check is $30M each year
Pitt promptly blows it on bad coaching hires, vacations to OBX, bobbleheads and gas for student shuttles
It is then left with a $10M hole in its budget
Thats reality folks
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You forgot the free Fantas
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my apologies. But they cant be caffeine free. Otherwise fans will fall asleep like they did at the OSU game.
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Don’t forget the hotel bills for Fall camp on the North Shore
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Haha
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and last year at this time, you would have scoffed if anyone predicted a Coastal title …. and before the bowl game, Reed predicted a 17 point Sanford win
But the needle always moves for you realists, it will never be enough
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6 starters sat. One being one of the best RB’s last year.
Winning the coastal was like kissing a woman before a curtain and she kisses good. Then the curtain falls and she is 450 lbs and has one leg and wearing a Dale Jr. Nascar shirt.
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Actually it was 5 starters & Bryce Love was NOT one of the best running backs last year. A little over 700 yards total for the year.
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He was hurt and missed games Pitt Cocks
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You’re too comical Mark. Quit your day job and become a standup comedian. I’ll even help you with your delivery and become your manager. << From my house of course.
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Reality check?
Predicting Pitt to win 6 Games and making it to a Bowl while the majority of POVers were predicting GLOOM and DOOM.
Correctly predicting Pitt to lose the Bowl.
Failing to see Pitt being the best of the BAD in the Coastal.
Ya, I think this is pretty close.
Lol
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I forget who it was but one of the reality fellows predicted PITT to only win 4 games last year. So it wasn’t raining after-all. 😉
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I own it. I said 4 and it could of easily been 5 wins honestly. I was wrong and have no problem admitting that.
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OH?? It was you? Color me shocked….. So what is your complaint about PITT winning 7 regular season games then? I guess it could be from losing to the eventual National Champions, who PITT beat two years ago at their house of DEATH, or losing to Notre Dame (on the road) and UCF who both finished in the top 20?
I’ll say it again as I’m known for being a broken record. Maybe PITT shouldn’t have been in the ACC title game and get tagged with that 7th loss? Yes and they should have kicked Stanford’s butts but didn’t and Miami was a heck of a lot better football team than anyone wants to give credit for. Especially how PITT couldn’t throw the ball downfield. Problem solved and dealt with, Watson is gonzo.
Onward I roll. . . . . ike
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Didn’t win 10… no excuses. Play like a champion today.
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I also remember one of our current reality posters that had Narduzzi rated below almost every Coastal coaches last season. Some of the same coaches who also aren’t employed with the current Coastal teams this year.
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Does anyone like these facts:
one 10 win season since 1982
nearly a decade since Pitt was ranked in a final poll
one of the lowest donation rates in the ACC for sports
one of the lowest in the ACC for attendance as a % of capacity
7 wins as the average over the past decade
The reality is that Pitt football has been mediocre for the past 35 years. Moreover, most Pitt fans dont seem to mind and the administration cares only enough to do what is required to keep membership in the ACC.
Within 10 years, football schools will split with the NCAA and essentially become the minor leagues for the NFL. You’ll have 30 schools with the largest supporters and best brands. Pitt will be left out and the money train will come to an end. But I actually look forward to this day since Pitt will finally be able to compete against like minded schools and not football factories. And players from schools like Pitt will always be drafted…Pitt just wont pay you.
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so what the hell do you expect! Accept the reality.
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fans should not give the university a free pass
fans deserve better than 6-7 win seasons
students deserve to be treated better than being bused to games
alumni deserve better treatment as well
I refuse to accept that the present reality is acceptable
Its wrong
so what can I do about it…well I for one began talking about that ‘OCS’ idea over 5 years ago and actually got published by the Pitt News and the UB News, and with my partner in crime CompLit, created a non-profit (PHP) and website for the endeavor.
what can you fans, students and alumni do about it?
what are you willing to do?
if Pitt sports is acceptable, then I guess the answer is do nothing or continue going to games, making donations and saying nice things
If Pitt sports is not acceptable, do something like I did and what I continue to do. I just dont sit in front of my PC and complain nor do I close my eyes and ears.
Pitt fans on both sides need to be heard. What is Pitt doing about it?
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This is exactly the point. The so called realists know the reasons for why PITT is not a national championship contender year in and year out but they still want to put the blame on a particular person when in fact it has been a collaborative effort by PITT University over the course of time for almost 40 years.
BREAKING NEWS FLASH: This just in, Narduzzi is not going anywhere anytime soon. To be continued….
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and bad coaching is part of the reason for mediocrity
Narduzzi hired his poor D coordinator in his first 2 years
He hired in poor offensive coordinator in his last 2
thats all on him
and he continues to recruit poorly
he’s not absolved of his sins
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Because no one wants him except Bloomsburg and Cal U.
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What makes the world go round and round? Different strokes for different folks. In all seriousness, I’m so happy the “reality” folks are back. It really is what this blog is about. I just hope PITT doesn’t win their first five games this coming year. 🙂
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Yeah if pitt wins their first five games this year (im not counting on it) the “realists” will have worse radio silence on the pov than they did when pitt went on the winning streak to take the coastal.
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You say the coastal like it means anything to anyone outside Carrick.
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It seemed to mean something to you and the “reality” posters because you quickly vanished from posting on the pov during that time.
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My break had zero to do with Pitt winning more than 4 games there Jefe. You don’t know me so quit acting like you do and that I was afraid to post because a college football team beat my expectation.
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At the risk of sounding negative…
Next season, Narduzzi FINALLY wins his first Bowl (aka “meaningless exhibition”).
But, alas… no COVETED Coastal.
Just keeping it real.
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I don’t think either would be a big surprise, seeing how a new team wins the Coastal every year and Pitt has to win a bowl someday. Actually last year was the first time they lost three in a row, so they are due.
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And yes, I do realize that comes with a risk.
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For me, I need to see KP rise to be one of the top 4 QB’s in the ACC by season’s end along with one of the new RB’s. It could be one of the three 4* guys or one of the 3* dawgs. I also believe at least one of the WR’s will need to rise to a top 8 ACC receiver to help KP elevate his game.
On the other side of the ball, the D will be stout and surprise many, including Franky from creepy valley and UCF. There will need to be several new names added to the All-ACC team at year’s for that to be the case.
Special Teams should be s strength with Kessman another year more mature and the Aussie with a full season under his belt. Ffrench will be good as s return man, but Pitt needs one or two of the young speedsters to take his starting spot at some point – Ffrench was somewhat tentative and inconsistent – he either took it to the house or made a fair catch.
The coaching HAS to get better (in game management, halftime adjustments, use of trick plays, etc). Have two former HC’s assisting our 1st time HC should help. Someone needs to teach these guys how to step on the opponent’s throat.
BTW – I heard an interview with Duke HC Cutcliff who claims his O will be better than last year because he has 3 or 4 WR’s over 6’4” and a mobile QB with an accurate arm. Uh oh!
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Back in the Burgh, great time with the guys and many thanks to Rick who put me on his team. Interesting format, a step aside scramble meaning, no one was allowed to hit consecutive shots until putting.
Winning score of 12 under was astounding, just saying.
A good time was had by all and big thanks to Rick and Fran for doing the heavy lifting. Rick’s course is pretty challenging and the day was perfect.
Great to see Reed who drove up for 19th hole.
While in the area yesterday, tried to visit Longwood which was closed for a special event, so we went to Winterthur, former mansion and gardens of Henry DuPont, now a museum. Spectacular!
This may have been posted before but very interesting. I couldn’t find the future OCS.
https://www.campusplan.pitt.edu/draft-campus-plan
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Pitt decided to use money, that they don’t have, to build a 3000 seat arena for volleyball, wresling, and gymnastics instead on a location perfect for a MPC.
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So what do all you “reality” folks see as the solutions to the problems?
Tex offers up ideas. He is pretty much the only one.
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Hire the OC at Ohio State who was at Oklahoma State and sign him to a 6 year deal. From PA and a stud.
I have said this for a year.
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Certainly a multi-purpose on campus facility would be the best option. A 3,000 seat arena is worthless for most sports including football, outdoor track, future ice hockey and lacrosse, etc. With land so limited, multiple sites don’t cut it. Really, about 10 minutes worth of discussion among AD and BoT would swiftly get to the conclusion that one dome covered multi-purpose facility that seats 50,000 for football would be the obvious way to go. They should start planning for that fixed end result immediately and take it where it goes. The lease with the Steelers will expire soon, and they will not have planned another option. Start fund raising, and when the money is there, build it. They could find the land if they really wanted to.
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not sure where Pitt is finding the money for all this
Pitt hasnt even publicly said how much all this was going to cost
And its still just a plan and can and will change although I do hear that bids are out and groundbreaking is set to begin on some of these projects
Pitt does need a new rec center for students. They are a good 20 years behind the times. I’ve posted links before on what other schools have. Great facilities to improve a students experience and to attract high quality applicants. I’m very interested in how Pitt’s will compare.
Pitt also needs better facilities and improvements to Trees and a replacement for Fitzgerald, both dinosaurs and embarrassments. I am sure that Fitzgerald doesnt meet the ACC code. Its 85 degrees and humid inside for a womens volleyball game in September. This isnt beach volleyball. But Fitzgerald is home to Pitt’s two most successful programs which are unfortunately not well attended and lose Pitt millions each year.
And then it needs a track but frankly its been without one for 20 years and somehow the Pitt men finished 4th in the ACC championships. The women finished second to last though.
But I guess the less people know the better so Pitt wont receive tough questions. Some things never change like tuition increases every year, Pitt finishing near dead last in the Directors Cup and Pitt sports running a deficit I’ll credit Pitt for that level of consistency.
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Tex, Pitt has a several billion dollar endowment, so they should know something about fund raising. Besides, a simple calculation of the discounted additional cash flow would indicate that they would only need to raise about a third of the cost with the additional amount financed through the additional revenues from concerts, additional food sales, parking in Oakland, etc. The balance could be paid for over time from future donations.
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Does anyone know what a several billion dollar endowment can do? Make you several more. Where is that money going?
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Ike – I agree. They could buy up all of South Oakland and build a stadium and create a true campus and green space and not even spend 450M.
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$3B endowment
Pitt invests the money every year but I’m not sure how it is spent
Not even sure how it can be used but I would think anything associated with the university unless the donor specifically earmarked the funds
I know they use the millions in interest to help offset operating expenses yet tuition increases every year
there is an opportunity cost to just letting the money sit
Pitt really should be forced to spend a % every year
Maybe thats how they plan on paying for Victory Heights
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$4B
and in 2017 it grew by 13%
and probably did even better in 2018 given the market
https://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/b18wy05mcr39v3/University-of-Pittsburgh-s-Endowment-Names-New-CIO
thats an incremental $300-400M each year via interest and donations but before management expenses
so why would a university even contemplate floating a bond for any capital project?
I think Pitt’s endowment is in the top 10 of all public universities
why not use it to Pitt’s advantage given it is severely revenue challenged in athletics and losing money each year
what good are these billions if they are not spent. I’m sure that every donor/philanthropist wanted their money spent.
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Pitt’s policy is to spend 4.5% of the funds earnings every year.
It seems like every school is different but based on my research Pitt is on the lower end of spend
So Pitt spends roughly $200M every year
And many politicians have been advocating for a larger spend and not having universities sit on this tax exempt money
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some articles
https://pittnews.com/article/28159/archives/universitys-endowment-ranked-4th/
https://pittnews.com/article/14787/archives/pitt-endowment-grows-by-25-percent-in-2011/
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/01/31/endowment-returns-fell-2016
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Per ‘Money’ mag article:
‘Colleges generally aim to have a 10-year average return of about 7.5% on their endowments, according to the National Association of College University and Business Officers.
Most colleges aim to spend between about 4% and 5% of their endowment each year. Finance officers say that allows them to contribute some money to the operating budget and pay their investment expenses, while not letting the overall endowment lose ground to inflation.’
Pitt’s return is above 10% over the past 5 years
Inflation is below 2%
So the net margin is at least 8%
Pitt’s spend is 4.5%
So Pitt spends about $200M each year
They could probably spend another $80M more and still leaves a cushion allowing the portfolio to grow
and we wonder why financial aid is down and tuition costs increase
Unfortunately, the donors primarily contribute to academic causes and the Medical School
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Thanks Tx. Where is the revenue from the football program going? To the Rooney’s?
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Pitts football revenues are low relative to most P-5 teams. Only 40k show for games. Pitt doesn’t get 100 percent of the cut at Heinz. Pitt gets no revenue from naming rights and its limited in sponsorship and advertising monies because it’s a renter. The only way Heinz helped in maximizing revenues was through the seat licensing and suites. Pitt could have built suites and luxury boxes in Oakland but they chose not.
They now play in a cheaply built stadium that will be torn down in ten years.
The game will be played differently and viewed differently in ten years. New stadiums will reflect these legal and customer driven changes in the design and construction.
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The not so realists have the but but buts. But we almost beat stanford. Stanford was a loss. You can dominate a game offensively and defensively and still lose. Teams are judged on wins and losses and Pitt lost that one….and 6 others. I don’t care if Pitt ended up 7-7 or 7-6. Pitt was mediocre and didn’t rank in the top 40 or 50 in rankings.
But but but Pitt is handicapped in their ability to recruit. According to whom? Pitt can recruit just like any other program. Pitt chooses not to recruit competitively. When Pitt is the 15th P5 school to offer a prospect and the other schools are OSU, Alabama, MIchigan, etc., we have no chance. The administration makes it easy to recruit against Pitt.
But but but Pitt played a difficult OOC for years. So what! Whose fault was that? Pitt’s Administration. I remember in 2010/11 Wanny had the 5th or 6th toughest schedule as per espn mike and mike.
But but but our head coach is still learning to be a coach. So what! When you pay your coach top 30 money, you should get top 30 results in recruiting, wins/losses, and graduation. You are paying for a CEO, not a facilities manager. Results matter. In business, a ceo that doesn’t get you results, gets canned. Very simple.
But but but, the empty seats and steeler stadium hurts pitt. So what! Pitt chose to make that huge mistake and hubris stops them from fixing it. All of this is on Pitt. Now, somebody say that any of those statements weren’t true.
I hope Pitt goes 14-0 this coming year. Sports isn’t about what ifs. I also hope I don’t have to rinse and repeat for the 38th year in a row next year! Fixing this takes hard work. In fact, you have to work harder and have a plan to make a change. Pitt has not shown they have hired the people to work harder than 95 % of their competitors, nor have they shown the fanbase a plan that they can be held accountable against. Why? because it is a scam and the fans that care continue to get abused emotionally and financially.
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thats why the fans need to stop attending games
thats the only way that Pitt will maybe ‘get it’ and finally start to listen
in my day, the big boosters paid for planes to fly over Pitt stadium with signs saying Bozik must go
and Bozik went
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This “reality” poster did in fact leave the POV AFTER Pitt won the Coastal- I was at that game in Winston-Salem, BTW. Didn’t see many of you “optimists” there.. Great time with the guys who DID show.
The people who matter at all know EXACTLY why I stopped commenting- and it was not due to our historic Coastal Championship.
For the record, our golf squad now has as many Championships as Narduzzi- and the FRANKAN is actually more prestigious than the Coastal. And we did it in only three years! Then again, upitt and JeffInCPA (or JeffinPSUHell, or whatever he’s calling himself these days) are far better recruits than Pitt FB gets these days..
Great to see Joel, Erie Express, Dan72, lastrow, etc. We don’t agree all the time, but they are knowledgeable, respectful and logical men that can carry an argument without making things up or calling people “haters.”
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You “reality ” posters look for ways to diminish Narduzzi and hand select stats to fit your narrative and ignore those that don’t.
That is just keeping it real.
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Wrong. I have never “hand selected” or ignored any facts. I just see them differently than you do. I see 7-7 and see .500 in a weak division and BLOWOUT losses to 2 of the 3 good teams on the schedule.. and ANOTHER LOSS to UNC. Others see a Division title (NOT an ACC title) and point to a difficult OOC. And that’s fair. I disagree, but it’s fair.
But I don’t post in hyperbole and call people childish names like “hater.” I make no bones about the fact that I think Narduzzi is a jerk. I also think Saban is a jerk. But I don’t “diminish”Saban’s accomplishments- he actually has some.
Is it cherry picking to point out he’s 4 games over .500 in four years? How about zero bowl wins? How about back to back thumpings to PSU? What about a 30+ point loss to UCF? How about four straight losses to UNC (in the bottom 10 of FBS teams)? How about the fact that EVERY recruiting service and media outlet in the country shows a steady decline each year of his tenure?
But I cherry pick because I don’t give him a pass due to the OOC? The OOC might explain losses to PSU, OK ST and UCF.. but does it explain 30 point losses to those teams? UCF played 14 games- and powerhouses like ECU, Temple, Memphis and SMU didn’t get blasted by 30. PSU played 13 games and only Kent St. and Illinois lost by more points to the Lions than did Pitt. In fact, Rutgers, Appalachian State, Indiana and Iowa all stayed within a touchdown. That’s a real murder’s row, eh?
I agree Pitt has many obstacles beside Narduzzi. But his results the last 2 seasons have been mediocre. If Blewitt doesn’t hit last second kicks against Clemson, GT and Syracuse, Pitt is 25-27 in his tenure. But he did make those kicks so Narduzzi is a DOMINATE 28-24. That is mediocre by definition.
All that said, ONLY Upitt has called for his firing. And yet, some keep saying Tex, Reed, I and others are calling for his firing- which we are not.
So my question.. Can you people read?
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i was 100% against the extension made by dear Heather who often vacations in times of need at OBX…which I love by the way…the Corolla area
I’ve been hard on the Dog particularly his recruiting and the abomination last year of 2 stars with offers from Elon and Holy Cross.
He’s getting paid good coin now for 12-14 and no bowl wins. He needs to step up…NOW
And if Heather was smart, stepping up means a bare min of 8 wins this year plus a bowl win makes 9.
But she will keep the Dog regardless since cutting him lose will be a tacit admission of failure on her end. She felt obliged to extend him with 2 years remaining on his contract and right after a 5 win season. Solely because Narduzzi helped hire her.
Thats the culture at Pitt and why its SOP, mediocre at best and utterly incompetent in more ways than one.
Things will always be this way and will NOT change unless fans stop attending games. There really needs to be a boycott of this abortion called Pitt football. BTW – I didnt say to stop caring.
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“Keeping it real”. “Haters”. I feel like I’m watching an episode of Fresh Prince of Bel Air..
And remember, keeping it real can go terribly wrong..
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Chappelle Show: When Keeping it Real Goes Wrong 1 https://www.funnyordie.com/2009/7/16/17708062/chappelle-show-when-keeping-it-real-goes-wrong-1?utm_campaign=funnyordie&utm_content=entry&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter via @funnyordie
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The truth about this season and narduzzi’a term in general is that he has not been a clear cut success. That is why there is so much debate. It’s easy to grab one set of stats and “prove” something positive. It’s just as easy to grab another set of stats and “prove” something negative. Both sides do it because it’s there for both sides. Fortunately for those who like controversy this is likely to continue unless duzz wins 10 games for 3 years in a row…
Also pittman2003 I love your outlook. But there are always going to be guys like jay and Tex who don’t agree with you. Feel free to label them haters … but keep in mind they are going to label you. Now as long as we are only calling each other “haters” and “Kool aid” drinkers I will let this entertaining little feud continue. Just make sure to say within the guardrails fellas, and remember we are all happy when Pitt wins.
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Not withstanding athletic facilities, Pitt needs to develop a relationship with the big tech and business companies and all the regional college schools to bring teaching into the twenty first century. Call it a Google city. The city needs a spark to keep up with the rest of the country.
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BTW Jay, Tx has more than strongly suggested that PITT should get rid of Narduzzi and he backs up his words in the same manner you do. There’s nothing wrong with people disagreeing with each other.
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Tex has stated that he thought the extension was bad and that another .500 season should seal his fate.. That is NOT the same thing as saying he should be fired now. That’s my point about the POV.. Reading comprehension is POOR. Saying Pitt could do better is NOT the same as saying he should be fired. I’ve read most (obviously not all) of Tx’s posts. I have never read any calling for Narduzzi to be fired. If I’m wrong.. I apologize.
Secondly, I completely agree that people can disagree. I’m not the one labeling posters “haters” and using silly childish phrases, like “keeping it real” and attacking posters who don’t agree with me… That would be many in your “optimists” group..
And that my fellow readers, is the real reason I stopped posting- not Narduzzi’s march to the coveted Coastal Championship..
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Jay When keeping it real goes wrong was one of my favorite chapelle show skits👍.
Honestly i just have to agree to disagree with you guys. I probably get a little too passioned on here at times and if I have been a Richard I apologize. We all love pitt and just disagree on the best way for pitt to move forward. I am sure if we were together having a beer the discussion would be more cordial than on a message board.
Have a Good night.
Pittman
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Clemson beat Alabama by 28 … and even used its back-up QB, which wasn’t used vs Pitt
Ohio State beat Michigan by 43
Purdue beat Ohio State by 29
All 3 losers above won 13, 10 and 13games respectively …. and are LOADED with 4 and 5 stars, You ‘realists’ have to get in the 21st Century. College football has changed since the 70s
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Jay… Are you OK?
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my heat went up after the extension
i believe it was ill advised and premature
Coach is now getting paid much more and the staff and recruiting budget is there (5th highest spend in the ACC despite revenues in the bottom 3rd of the conference)
no excuses
so after this year, if the Dog doesnt win at least 8 plus a bowl, I personally would cut him lose
i have little patience in a coach i view as a 9 win ceiling coach…oh yes he might get lucky one year and win 10 but he’s not the coach that can consistently do it
and thats my opinion based on what i see and perceive
nothing wrong with it although you might disagree and i hope for the programs sake that i am wrong
i would hire a coach from the mac or aac. a head coach and not an assistant. i’d make sure the new coach came from a good coaching tree pedigree and was offensive minded. A plus would him being familiar with the acc and recruiting in the regional area. he doesnt have to be a Pitt guy.
but thats just me. who am i kidding
heather will never fire him.. she extended him. Firing him would be an admission of failure on her part. her ego is as big as his and shes in the game to pha and then move back to Michigan.
the only way a change gets made is if some big booster places a stipulation on a transformational gift or if attendance drops like a rock
wbb – football really hasnt changed in 40 years. Pitt just refused to keep doing what it takes to win.
Its taken the cheap way out by hiring assistants and assistants on existing staffs (Foge and Hackett). It never spent the money needed for hiring good staffs and having a competitive recruiting budget until recently.
It totally ignored Pitt Stadium and let her fall apart. It continues to do very little about its revenue poor position. The department has little vision, leadership and is derelict in fiscal responsibility. It has not one once of marketing genius.
Its far more concerned about compliance matters and has no appetite to take calculated risk. It refuses to play in the gray area.
It continues to mistreat fans, abuse alumni and take students for granted. Its such a toxic culture first created by Bozik and then continued under Steve 2. There is no plan for growing new fans and instilling school pride and spirit.
All this stuff didnt happen by chance. There was a plan and structure created to produce these results and it continues to this day because people fail to see through it and enable it. Pitt never wanted to be anything more than mediocre after Jackie and fans didnt seem to mind.
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The REAL problem is Pitt fans are the most complacent fans in College Football… and don’t even know it!
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POD and with much respect, that is the most unrealistic comment I’ve read in a long while. PITT are not exclusive in anyway shape or form.
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POD I think the problem is way too many pitt fans have just given up on pitt sports altogether. I graduated in 03 and sadly more than half of my pitt friends have stopped following pitt. Us diehards are hard to come by sadly. And we see that at heinz field on Game days
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Brutal loss in basketball today w the Nova point guard 5 Star transfer choosing Bama. I thought we had this one. Pitt would beat Bama right now straight up. Just cannot understand this? My first question about Capel….
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SEC has a higher cost of attendance and can therefore pay a higher monthly dollar amount to the athlete students. Definite recruiting advantage if that is all that is given to an athlete. Who knows what else happens. Ask lsu or ole miss, arizona or auburn. You either play the game or you don’t.
What i find most interesting about the commenters is that others have said that it takes years for capel to develop contacts and to give him time. i argued back that he has established relationships with these kids for years. Now we have an athlete student that he has known for many years and poof, lost em to the sec. Like ole miss. Follow the cash.
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Welcome to the club.
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Every excuse I now read when Pitt misses out on a recruit is the other team paid for the player or Pitt went 0-19 not long ago in ACC play. I certainly thought Capel would be selling better on getting at least one higher-ranked player to come in at power forward to play with the three to-be sophomores.
There are two bigs left, one from Texas who Pitt likely has no shot at who decommitted from Washington State and another who will be visiting Kansas soon. It is Terrell Brown and zip behind him at center and Toney is going to have to play the four spot again after Capel said he doesn’t want him there in 2019-20. Another year of getting killed on the boards it is looking like.
Another worry is Capel used up a lot of the NCAA allotted official visits so he’ll have to be really selective in 2020.
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This loss had nothing to do with money. Capel straight out got out recruited on the Nova guard.
Maybe he’s been going to the Narduzzi school of recruiting!
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I wish that was true Dan, but money in the sec is different than in any other conference now. The sec figured it out. First it was football and now they have expanded the reach to bball, which are the two largest income producers in college sports. LSU, Tenn, Kentucky, Ole Miss, Auburn, Florida and now Texas A&M hires Buzz Williams from VTech.
Funny thing, but if you don’t think there are shenannigans going on, one need only look at LSU, Bruce Pearl, Calipari for indications of fire because of all the smoke with those coaches. We can bury our heads or just admit the reality. You have to play and I don’t care if the kid comes from money. It’s STATUS with elite players, period.
The other conferences got duped! The SEC and their AD’s outsmarted the rest of the conferences, period.
If he got outworked, that is problematic, but to me, it is more than that.
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Missed the point former.
If the point was that clempson, osu, michigan and alabama won a lot of games and have a lot of 4 and 5 star players on their roster, point received.
They all get more 4 and 5 stars in a recruiting class than Pitt has on the roster.
Now, Purdue’s big time recruit that singlehandedly beat osu last year was an outlier, but then, purdue was very average and the stars aligned for a series of games for them which started when they beat ACC boston college, nebraska and i think northwestern, before beating osu. They were on a 4 game winning streak and the bubble burst immediately following and they never recovered. Hobbled to a 6-7 year. I think i still missed the point.
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Pitt knows how to raise money, and yet they haven’t moved ahead with an OCS. If Pitt doesn’t care to have a winning football program, why should the fans and alums care?
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Amen!
https://tenor.com/view/preacher-arsenio-coming-to-america-what-iwant-gif-14026313
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Pitt knows how to raise money for academics. I’m not sure the fundraising is going all that well with Victory Heights. I think they have all their eggs in one basket with Tepper.
Pitt only cares about doing what is needed to stay in the ACC and to continue receiving that $30M annual check. There is little incentive (unless written into a coaches contract) to win games.
And frankly fans are beginning to care less and less each year. The diehards are literally dying off. Pitt isnt growing new fans. Attendance is flat to down at Heinz (last year had the lowest attended opener in 15 years). Pitt sits near the bottom of alumni donating to sports.
But there still are enough fans to keep football relevant. Pitt has been careful to not reach the breaking point and I think that is a primary reason why they are spending more.
Think what would happen if Pitt did start having 10 win seasons:
1) the academic eggheads would get jealous and this tension would create animosity…remember the mission statement
2) the coaching staff would be asking for raises and assistants would start to get offers from other schools resulting in salary escalation
3) the winning will get noticed by elite recruits and many of these recruits have character issues. They are also more focused on going pro than attending class and staying out of trouble. The university wont be able to market their GPA’s, service projects and graduation rates
4) the winning will make fans start to think big and you’ll be hearing more demand an on campus stadium. That means a very expensive feasibility study, a massive fundraising campaign and alot of hard work for the AD.
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Tx Panther, so college FB hasn’t changed?
In 1975, PSU scored a total of 250 pts; in 2018, it surpassed that in only its first 6 games
in 1975 Clemson scored a total of 170 pts; in 2018, it surpassed that in its first 5 games
in 1975, UCF didn’t even have a team, it began as a Div III team in 1979.
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Changing coaches is easy, changing an ingrained culture is hard.
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Besides TV and offense, it hasnt
My bigger point is that you still need good coaches, good players, good facilities
Pitt was very good in the 70’s because it had very good coaches and some elite players
It hasnt been good since then because the coaches havent been good and Pitt hasnt gotten enough elites
If Pitt was serious about winning, it would have made the money available to hire the best coaching staffs. It would have a recruiting budget that is competitive. It would take care of facilities and have a long term plan.
But Pitt doesnt do these things whereas the football powers today have. Pitt was doing those things until Jackie left and Bozik started to run things. At that point, they decided the mission statement was more important. They decided they did not want to spend the kind of money needed on coaches and facilities. They didnt want semi pro athletes at Pitt.
Finally, today at least Pitt is spending the money on coaches and recruiting that is needed for 10 win seasons. But this is after 30 years of being cheap and neglectful.
So right now the only things holding Pitt back is the coaching, recruiting and schedule. All have solutions.
Whipple might be that solution this year. Recruiting is more difficult since Pitt doesnt have a good recent history of winning. But there is still plenty of talent surrounding WPA. The OOC can be fixed if Heather got off her butt.
10 wins is a top 20 ranking. I’m not saying Pitt needs to go back to top 10. That would require money that Pitt just doesnt have (Pitt is revenue poor) and would require Pitt to become a football factory…and I dont even want that.
To go back to coaching since that is the primary variable in all of this since the HC selects his staff, his recruiters, sets the culture, is the personality of the program, does the x’s and o’s
Since I agree that its an offensive league, Pitt’s next HC really needs to be a proven HC with an offensive background. But since Pitt has a former DC as its current HC, he really needs a top OC. We’ll see if Whipple is the answer.
All this is moot in 10 years anyway when the football factories break from the NCAA and form their own NFL minor leagues. Pitt is actually well positioned for this event and would be one of the top dogs in the student/athlete conference of non-professionals.
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this is what may happen
https://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/college-football-expanded-playoffs-10-years-alabama-ohio-state-notre-dame-051616
And last I checked Pitt’s fanbase or TV eyes are outside any top 40 list. Its brand is ranked in the 50’s.
So Pitt would be on the outside looking in. But it could dominate a non-professional league. And if there is a concept of relegation, Pitt would have a chance to move up into this new league.
Pitt wouldnt be getting any 4 stars. No different than today. and the NFL would still draft outside their minor leagues so these 3 star Pitt players still have a chance of going pro.
I actually like this concept. Far more fair and transparent than the current structure.
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Voice – I clearly remember back in the late ’60s when my parents and their Pitt BoT friends talked about Pitt football and dropping down into what then was what we consider Division II ball now. The reason we never did that was because Pitt (and others schools) didn’t want to look like a ‘small’ school such as the schools we played that had lesser programs like William & Mary and George Washington who were in the “Southern Conference” (along with WVU).
They felt that if Pitt did that their national reputation would take a big hit especially because Pitt wasn’t as strong a school academically as it wanted to be… or as it is now.
Pitt was coming off Litchfield as Chancellor – who wasn’t very sports minded at all and then after two short term Chancellors we got Wes Posvar who very much wanted to keep and grow the football program.
But it sure did almost happen.
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Ironic that “Jay from Tower A” has named himself after the guy who has caused him so much pain in the long run! I’d trade the lichfield towers for a winning program any day! (Lol no offense Jay!)
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Posvar was an avid football fan. But his mistake was handing over sports to his military buddy Bozik. Bozik knew very little about sports and how to run what amounted to be a big business.
It was during the early 80’s that southern schools began spending big bucks on coaches and facilities. It was quickly becoming an arms race and I’m pretty sure Pitt knew it couldnt keep up.
It was also at this time that the SMU scandal broke and the death penalty. I’m also pretty sure that this scared the hell out of Pitt.
Hence, Pitt decided to just remain relevant and gave up on what it would require to remain elite.
So Pitt essentially became cheap, ignored major facility improvements and started the process to disband the Golden Panthers.
In the long run, Pitt really never stood a chance to stay consistently elite. Pitt wasnt a large state school with massive amounts of rabid fans who donate at the drop of a hat and will attend games in 100k stadiums. The Steelers became THE football team in the City and regional area. The local talent in the area eventually dried up as Pittsburgh’s population declined and southern states grew.
Yes the 70’s are never coming back and Pitt will probably never win another national championship in football unless the stars align. But Pitt sure the heck can become a consistent 9-11 game winner (top 15 to top 25 rankings). Pitt doesnt need the 70’s to do that.
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We all know the countless reasons why PITT has a little trouble getting over the hump these days in football. The main reason is…………. They don’t realize the revenue that a winning football program could generate. Sometimes it takes money to make money.
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Tx, PITT could have kept up, they just chose not to. Coming off a national championship and then on to 3 straight 11-1 season they were among the elite teams in the country. Then they pulled the plug with the changes to the academic standards and the money they would invest in the football program.
Things were just beginning to trend upwards when steve decided to become a dictator and connived to have Wanny fired. PITT is lucky to be able to hire anyone to coach this program. They are self-destructive.
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I have never agreed with you more.. on both points. I also agree with Tex that Pitt doesn’t deserve its fans- even the angry ones.
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Ike’s first paragraph seems to make sense. However, I’m lost on the Wanny firing, almost implying that if we had kept Wanny we would’ve had some sort of upward trajectory? I’m not trying to support Steve, he was bad for Pitt and did a terrible job, but Wanny would’ve been no savior for us by any stretch; perhaps I misunderstood the comment?
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You understood his comment.
ike and I both believe it was a terrible mistake to fire Wannstedt and the facts are that he was 26-12 in his last three years, had recruited some great talent and had a really good class likely to come in before he got fired. However, I understand why some feel the way they do.
Damn you, Mardy Gilyard!!!!
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That’s it Jay, Dave also had every local high school football coach in his back pocket. His system was finally set up and then………….
Kind of the reason I want to give gorilla arms another year or two.
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I am NOT advocating Narduzzi be fired. Let me say that again.. I am not advocating Narduzzi be fired.
However, there is a BIG difference in the Wannstedt and Narduzzi situations. Wannstedt was very well liked in WPA and his recruiting reflected it. The same can’t be said for Narduzzi.
In Central and Eastern PA, the situation is similar. Wannstedt was very well liked and respected in the Harrisburg area (Lesean McCoy, Aaron Berry). He also recruited NEPA (Jarred Holley, Devin Street) well. And NJ was another (Ray Graham, TJ Clemmings).
Time will eventually tell the story but he recruited all of the above in his first 4 classes, not to mention many very good players from WPIAL and FL. And it didn’t take 3-4 years to get those kids on the field.
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The stability Wanny provided was taking shape. Some good players were in his 2011 class and there was about to be an uptick in linemen in the state and defensive backs in western Penn.
There was a terrific stable of running backs coming back in 2011 with Lewis, Graham and Hyno and Tino would have improved on his 2010 season under Cignetti. The linebacking corps was suspect, but the D-line with Donald, Chas, Caregein and Lindsey would have been solid.
There were manageable schedules in 2011 and 2012, especially the latter, which was one of the easiest in my lifetime (born in 1973).
Then the PSU scandal that Wanny certainly would have pounced on to fill holes as I’m sure some kids would have called him.
No way Pitt wins less than 8 or 9 games in both those seasons. After Tino leaves the QB spot would have been a mystery and we know Dave struggled there. Maybe though Cignetti reels in a good kid over the 2011 verbal who ended up at Rutgers? Keeping Dave for four more seasons makes Pitt look much smarter instead of the reality: idiotic.
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Well I’ll disagree with all 3 of you. I loved Wanny, he’s a Pitt guy thru and thru, and he did provide stability at Pitt and did a respectable job, but I think riding that much longer would’ve been detrimental, he recruited well on the defensive side of the ball only, and was frankly a pretty poor college football coach, and worse than that in the NFL. I always felt bad for him in that regard, because I think his heart was in it for Pitt.
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An earlier point I made was clearly misunderstood. So, let me try again..
I agree blowout losses happen, even to good teams. My point was that if you lose close games to tough OOC opponents, you can point to the OOC schedule and say, “Hey, maybe if it was UConn or Cinncinnati instead of UCF or PSU, we win those games.” But when you get HAMMERED like that and follow it up with a loss to UNC, I think it’s a stretch to assume Pitt wins ANY game. Pitt is just not good enough, or consistent enough to ever count on winning any particular game.
PSU in contrast, wins the games it should and loses the games it should. Aside from a few outliers, PSU wins it’s 8-10 garbage games each year (Temple, Coastal Carolina, Indiana, Illinois, Army, etc.) and loses most of the tough games (Ohio State, Michigan, Wisonsin, etc.) Hence, they finish 9-3 almost every season. It’s been that way since my childhood.
So, with PSU’s record versus ranked teams being what it is and it’s record versus unranked teams being what it is, I think it’s fair to say that PSU has benefitted from it’s scheduling. Statistics bear it out. Conversely, Pitt pulls off upsets all the time.. 1997- Miami, 1999- ND, 2002- VT, 2016- Clemson 2016, etc. but also loses inexplicably.. 1997- Temple, 2003- Toledo, 2004- UConn, 2012- YSU. So, can we REALLY assume Pitt would have a better record if the OOC was easier. I guess logically, you’d think PItt would HAVE to have a better record with an easier OOC. But logic also tells you that Pitt shouldn’t lose FOUR STRAIGHT to atrocious UNC teams. Wouldn’t it?
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To further expound. When you lose to a Dairy or any other tough opponent by a field goal, it can actually help you recruit (i.e. the athlete student is the missing piece that will put the team over the top and win the game versus losing next year, etc). Unfortunately for Pitt this year, the athlete student cannot picture him making a difference when you get blown out other than to sday we only lost by 38 instead of 41. Sell the dream, but it needs to be attainable.
That’s what franklinburger is selling at Dairy. He now says they are great, but they want to be elite an beat the osu’s and alabama’s. Easy to believe when you are a recruit and see that Dairy has lost to OSU by a point twice in the last 3 seasons. Sell the dream.
The one positive about winning the coastal is that Pitt can sell recruits on keeping hold of that. What Nard needs to sell the recruit is that the coastal is the minimum and the goal is to take out clempson. Problem is they just got whoooped by clempson and it is thus a tougher sell.
Howland sold the dream of playing at the Pete and timed it perfectly with big recruits. NArduzzi has no facilities dream to sell which hurts him.
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Reed, you’re better than me…I don’t remember ANYTHING clearly from the late 60’s.
✌
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Peace out brother……………. I’m more blank on the early seventies though. We got stories Fran.
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The rich get richer. ACC would be minor group of left overs. Maybe truly amateur. NFL drafts care about players not where they come from.
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Much harder to compete at the highest levels than it was in the seventies.
Much more cash involved. Only a handful of teams have done it and most have not sustained it
for any length of time.
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The article would leave out all ACC schools except FSU and Miami.
Basketball not mentioned but those schools left out are the best NCAA BB schools.
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it would be an exclusive football league and most likely not associated with the NCAA. think of it as the minor leagues for the NFL.
basketball and other sports would function like they do today
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Pitt only gets honorable mention on this list.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/656112-college-football-the-25-best-teams-in-college-football-history#slide0
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Here is a list of all-time wins, very interesting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_football_teams_by_wins
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Had we not de-emphasized football from mid 80’s to mid 00’s, we would be top 10-15 all time. Instead our administrators thought they were smarter.
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Forties, 60s, 90s and also this decade running football like a Mickey Mouse operation cost Pitt dearly in the W column. All because administrators do not think it is important. Several school listed ahead of the Panthers are better academically than Pitt is, too.
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Pitt’s administrators did not treat athletics as a big business and did not see the value of the front porch.
Its cost Pitt more than just Wins. Its impacted their financials. Its impacted the quality of applicants. Its impacted donations. Its impacted their brand. And its impacted my sanity.
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Pitt has the worst winning % among the top 29
Its only ranked this high because it was one of the first schools to play the game
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heres a very good but lengthy article on the financial positions of P-5 schools. Pitt refused to share info in both 2004 and 2014, the years used in this study. But Pitt lost anywhere between $6 and $12M in those years based on what I’ve researched. Pitt is probably most similar to Ga Tech in revenues and losses if 2018 info was disclosed.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/sports/wp/2015/11/23/running-up-the-bills/?utm_term=.9883dd252548
My concern is that Pitt is a bit unbridled in its spending these days. And spending like a drunken sailor is not a good thing if your revenues dont keep up. At some point there will be a reckoning.
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Until Pitt invests a huge amount into facilities like victory heights or an OCS, I don’t think they are spending much. Narduzzi and Capel’s pay isn’t breaking the bank and are in line with middle of the road ACC schools.
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i look at it this way. spending too much relative to revenues. Pitt’s spend is at market. But Pitt’s revenues are below market. Hence a deficit and a large one at that relative to other P-5 schools. So a more fiscally responsible institution would either find ways to increase revenues (the approach favored by me) or find ways to reduce expenditures. Reducing expenses would put Pitt in a less competitive position and could very well result in program cuts. Thats why I’m a big advocate of a MPC as a revenue generator.
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People forget college FB has been played for over 100 years.
Some of those very early years had teams that were dominant in their time. The only difference between them and now is time.
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Pitt Football was exemplary for much of the first half of 20th Century.
Johnny Michelolsen was 56-49 from the mid 50s thru mid 60s.
The program was well below average in late 60s / early 70s
And then the program was again exemplary in the Majors/Sherrill era.
Above average in the 80s
Below average in the 90s
Above average in the 00s
Average in the 2010s.
Above average appears to now be the ceiling
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Football only:
Coaching is average
Recruiting is below average
Facilities are above average
Pitt = Mediocre
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Confused.
120 FBS teams.
Duzz’ average class over 4 years is about 40th
That’s the bottom of the top third, dawg.
Average at worst
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I look at it differently since large class sizes impact the numbers.
Based on my research, if you want to be top 25, you need roughly 50% of your class rated 5.7 stars and above. Its a general rule and no I dont have a regression equation for it but it did pique my interest once I made the discovery.
I found few schools who didnt achieve this level to be ranked. Those that did generally had some gimmick offense, good coaching, easy schedule, and some sustained luck…like some breaks and a good QB.
I looked over a 5 year span (2010 – 2015) because its a lagging indicator.
Speaking of Pitt, Only Narduzzi’s 2018 class achieved that marker. The other years were around 30% and then 15% last year.
Pitt will never win a NC based on this but they will get ranked unless coaching screws things up, injuries, other factors that get in the way.
Elite teams that go to the BCS have 70% plus classes with 5.8 stars and above. That means only 30% of their classes are comprised of 3’s
‘All’ Pitt needs to do is get those high star 3’s and maybe about four 4 stars every year. Its not that difficult with the right recruiter. Pitt has more to sell than most ‘mediocre’ P-5 schools
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Yes yes your standards are very high we get that.
Bottom line is that by definition and factually the duzz’ classes are average at worst. What you are describing is ‘very good’
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if you want to look at it that way, I’d only compare Pitt against other P-5 teams. To make it simple, only compare Pitt to how they stack up against other ACC teams. And I would look at avg star rating and not total points to avoid bias with large class sizes…dont want to penalize a school for having a small class.
So here are the results under the Dog based on ACC rank out of 14 teams (all relative):
2016: 5
2017: 5
2018: 8
2019: 9
So Narduzzi ranks at a 7 out of 14 teams over the past 4 years. Trend is undeniably down though. He’s average at best in his recruiting.
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That’s is the very definition of average. I agree the numbers say the trend is down. If they are similarly down for the 2020 class that could be a bad sign for the direction of the program. Just another reason why this year is a big one. Both for the duzz’ and for the program
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well Pitt is dead last in the 2020 class for sheer numbers. Only 3 recruits. Most schools have at least 8 by now. I dont think recruits value the Coastal as much as Pitt fans.
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Well, let’s look at P5 as that is our benchmark. 65 P5 teams (you know, the wealthy). Nard is in the Top 40’s. Equals bottom 3rd.
Touche’
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Damn huff. You and Tex are right. I’m going by star average to normalize for class since:
2015 – 65 – basically last in p5. Only Kansas (snort!) , Iowa state, Perdue, Colorado and Oregon State below is.
2016 – 29 – slightly above average!
2017 – 38 – average, with a +- 3 margin of error (about 5%)
2018 – 36 – average!
2019 – 50 – below average
And yet somehow in the same time frame we have the 3rd best record in the ACC? I’m scratching my head
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Pitt is in a pretty bad P-5 conference. 🙂
3 schools just fired their coaches as a result
Ours could be next given what Pitt is spending. 🙂
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Tex, I can’t imagine that Pitt is spending too much on football and basketball right now. Maybe they see what we see about the athletics dept., and want to do something about it. Recruiting is obviously weak, and maybe investing in a private plane to get them to recruiting sites would help. Let’s hope that the programs turn around before that day of reckoning comes. Announcing the formation of a committee to locate a site and begin fund raising for a new OCS would help as well! 🙂
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Pitt’s spend is finally at the market. Historically, Pitt has been cheap. They are not being cheap anymore but arent breaking the bank either. But, they are spending far more than they are taking in. Hence, there is a deficit.
And Pitt has always operated athletics with a deficit in the millions much like 70% of P-5 schools. But Pitt is in the bottom 20% of P-5 schools when it comes to revenues which makes their deficit much larger than most
So based on how you see it, Pitt has a revenue problem. But Pitt also has a spending problem because it deficit spends to just stay relevant…and always has.
Thats why I’ve been advocating a MPC to at least help solve Pitt’s revenue issues. If Pitt cuts back spending, they might as well drop out of P-5 or go with 13 programs which is the bare minimum.
the cost of this fiscal irresponsibility is roughly $500 per undergrad every year. Its a hidden student fee or tax. And thats flat out wrong. Athletics is a big business and they have nobody competent at the helm.
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Was doing some demo work today and put on the Fan for a while. They replayed some highlights from WVU’s baseball game in the NCAA regional in Morgantown.
WVU was up on Texas Tech 9-1 in the 7th. TT rallied and a grand slam made it 9-7. In the bottom of the 9th, (TT was the Home team), with two outs and a 3-2 count, TT hit another grand slam to win 11-10.
Best part was that the WVU announcer, in describing how devastated the WVU players were, said something like “This is the baseball equivalent of 13-9.”
Being an old pitcher in my HS days, I felt bad for the WVU closer, but great to hear the 13-9 reference…
Go Pitt.
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Of course PITT is spending more for the costs now a days. So am I at a relative rate per cost of expenses. Plus I’ll readily admit that I try and keep my expenses as low as possible like everyone else. But it’s my money and so far.. no one has donated to my cause.
Tx, you’re all over the place with blame. The funny part is that I know you know the real problem and it ain’t Narduzzi.
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He’s a symptom
But the recruiting and staff hires is on him
I suggested tarping as a temp solution to those yellow seats but he’s flat against it
I’ll suggest Coke over Fantas to Heather
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Pitt needs to look no further than UVA to see how a successful athletics department should be run. No one is saying that Vrginia’s academic profile is slipping because they won the national championship. They do things right there, they play by the rules and they win.
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In basketball yes. Their football program is just now getting on par with Pitt’s. Depending on who you talk that that may not be saying very much…hah
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they also dont know how to run a sports department although they just lose $3M each year unlikes Pitt’s $10M
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they do spank us in Directors Cup
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see
https://virginiasports.com/news/2018/7/9/athletics-virginia-finishes-21st-in-final-directors-cup-standings.aspx
and this was last years. they are even better this year. and guess what, Pitt is even worse
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Pitt should have gone D-1 AA back in the early 70’s
Would have saved Pitt around $500M
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Tx, you wouldn’t be paying any attention to PITT football if they had dropped down to D-1 AA football. Thus the reason why they never did.
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Correct. I would have gone to Penn State.
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Damn sounds like we just got all the luck. Haha just kidding Tex, this board would be bland without you
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UVA losing $3 million is equivalent to breaking even. This is roughly where Pitt needs to be. With $30 million from the ACC, and other revenue received locally, Pitt should have sufficient revenue to run athletics on a long term basis. The contract buy outs hurt which is why Narduzzi got an extension
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they should but they dont
they have always lost between $6 and $12 Million each year
they have never broken even or turned a profit
there is no accountability or penalty
thats my point
they spend far more money than they receive
the deficit is a burden placed on students
Pitt continues to kick the can down the road
the end result is higher tuition for students and an opportunity cost for Pitt athletics (profit can be re-invested)
and UVA gets far more bang for the buck…21st last year in directors cup versus 111 for Pitt
and narduzzi only got an extension from Heather because He helped hire her and it was reciprocation. Nobody in the sports business extends a coach in year 3 of a 5 year contract after said coach wins 5 games.
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nobody but Pitt
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They she hadn’t extended him it would have been tantamount to firing him. Recruit class would not have even been 50th if coaches could sell recruits on the fact duzz might not be around in 3 years. That’s just the way it goes
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I just dont buy that. Personally, I would have waited until the end of the 4th year. Given the way the season progressed, I would have announced something right after Pitt clinched the Coastal. I also would have made sure the contract was heavily laced with incentives. I’m very curious how his contract is structured. But Heather would have had far more leverage if she waited.
If Pitt has to sell recruits on Narduzzi, we are in deep trouble. The sell should always be on the school, the campus, the City. Coaches come and go. Your degree stays with you.
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🤦♂️
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Tex, I’m with you on most things, but stating that Narduzzi getting extended was pay back for Heather getting hired is over the top. Athletics is a results oriented business. If Narduzzi and Capel don’t win it could be Heather out the door along with them. One could also argue that the Director’s Cup results must be improved and .500 in football is good enough while the lesser sports get upgraded. It is not possible to know Pitt’s athletics objectives so alleging Heather’s motives is inappropriate
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I’l admit its over the top but its also highly unusual…call it suspect. Show me a coach coming off a 5 win season that gets a 7 year extension. He had 2 years remaining on his contract. I know enough about sports contracts to know its very rare to extend a coach before year 4 of a 5 year contract (see Mike Tomlin for example).
I do know that Narduzzi helped hire Heather. I do know that any new AD wants to get on the good side of your most important coach. And I do know that its only human nature that she felt obliged. I obviously have no proof but the case I lay out is very intuitive. Pitt then justifies it using the stock stability arguments.
At this point it doesnt matter. It also doesnt matter if Heather is really on vacation at OBX or if Fanta will be replaced with Dr Pepper this year.
What I’d like to know are the incentive clauses in the contract. Many schools publicize/breakdown this info but I’m afraid Pitt will hide behind its semi-state status and refuse to disclose. I sure do hope there are incentives and bonus payouts for recruiting results, bowl wins, final rankings as well as the goody Compliance stuff like graduation rates, GPA’s and service badges.
I would think Pitt’s primary objective is stability but what good is stability if it results in mediocrity. Every school deals with change. The typical coach only lasts 5 years. I guess Pitt wanted to make up for 1 year Graham and 3 year Chryst.
Again, I dont see Narduzzi going anywhere until 2022 at the earliest…only 2 years left on the buyout.
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its just if it was made for stability and for recruiting, I would think that Pitt would have landed a far better class last year
I am curious how Narduzzi is selling Pitt. He’s obviously not the primary recruiter but he should be the closer. So what is his closing sales pitch?
whenever posters on BWI are ardent fans of the extension, you do need to at least second guess it. I’m sure the Nitters on Pitt’s BoT fully endorsed it.
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Who are the penn state ppl on the bot? That sounds like a travesty
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33% of the BoT are people appointed by bureaucrats/politicians. That actually might be worse.
Gallagher has an 9 person leadership team. Last I checked, Two are Nitters. None were Pitt grads. I hope thats changed.
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As do I. Although you know what Michael Corleone said “keep your friends close…and your enemies closer”
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Pulled this from a PSN article today –
*Pitt has hired Brady Hart as senior associated athletic director for development, athletic director Heather Lyke announced on Monday.
Hart will focus on fundraising at Pitt. He spent the last two years at UCF. Before that, Hart worked at Buffalo, Ohio State and Long Beach State. He played football at Yale and is a native of State College, Pa.
Ugh!
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Article being typed as we speak…
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Haha you scooped me Rick. State college was going to be my punchline
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This development guy could be the beginning of the OCS! But back to Narduzzi, I think that the extension was a money issue whereby Narduzzi had a big $ amount for a buy out in his initial contact. His modest record at the time of extension meant that in exchange for eliminating the buyout he would take a nice salary and some extra years to produce. If the years are not guaranteed by buyout then Pitt can dump him any time during the 7 years, but Narduzzi is under contract and may not be free to interview for other jobs. A classic case of locking someone in on very favorable terms when his leverage is low.
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for the kid in you…
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