271 thoughts on “Pitt vs Mount St. Marys BB Game Thread”

  1. I read in the PG yesterday that DeJuan Blair alone had 195 offensive rebounds in the 2008-9 season .. while the current team as a whole is on pace for 220 this year.

    I do see a lot of potential in freshmen Carr and Stevenson, and think Luther is really stepping up. The team is improving but do not see more than a few wins in the ACC at most. But as the previous HC used to say .. just continue to get better.

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    1. Agree with you wbb and I too think there is a lot of potential in Carr and Stevenson. The team will improve and perhaps a few others will blossom into good capable players as well.

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  2. Reed–I understand your frustration, but I truly believe that 99 % of the people who comment on this site follow your rules. Why not just ban those who ruin it for everyone else. For example, when Emel continuously showed his bigotry and obvious political lean you would make general statements for all to follow instead of just getting rid of him. In fact, you made it a point to emphasize that you did not bar him when he went missing for a few months. I suspect that had you banned such an obvious violator, others would have fell in line with your request.

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    1. Emel has written several very constructive/informative posts after his hiatus (don’t know if he had any blocked). I, for one, would hate to seem him banned unless he was a constant violator.

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      1. No I haven’t had any blocked…and I wonder who…… this Dr. Lou character is.

        Makes 1 grossly inaccurate comment about me. I think Dr. Lou should be banned for false accusations.

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  4. Mount St. Mary’s has been clobbered by an avg. of 26 points by the 3 bigtime programs on their schedule.
    Those being: Marquette, Notre Dame & G-Town. (sounds like their auditioning to get into the BigEast)

    So tonite’s game should be a good ‘measuring stick’…..for Otis & Crew.

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  5. EMel: With this team we have, I am happy with winning by 1 every time. It’s going to get ugly when we get to the ACC slate. I hope that discouragement does not lead to complacency.

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  6. Football topic: How do we all feel about Quadree Henderson leaving for the NFL and Chawntez Moss getting booted? I think Q is making a huge mistake, as I doubt he gets drafted. Maybe a 6th or 7th rounder. Remember Greg Lee??? We are stocked pretty good at running back, so I don’t see losing Moss as any big deal.

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    1. agree with both. You may forgot that Moss was suspended twice this past year .. the opener vs YSU and mid-year for 3 games or so. He had to see the writing on the wall.

      Hate to see QH leave but have to admit that he posted one the classiest exit memos I have ever seen.

      Best wishes for both of them

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    2. The concern at running back is not for 2018 but for 2019 when we’re down to Sibley and Davis. They need to sign a good one for 2018 who can be ready for 2019

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    3. I think Moss did right by himself and left. He should go some place and get a fresh start. I don’t begrudge him.

      I think QH is making a mistake. He’s not that polished as a WR. Making it in the NFL as solely a return specialist extremely difficult to do. I wish he would have stayed and had a year of working on becoming a better WR. Neverthelss. I wish him well and hope like hell he makes it.

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    4. Q is nuts, but teams will spend a late pick on a good returner and punt gunner who does nothing else. I like that Pitt won’t be using him as a receiver anymore. He can’t run routes and hs can’t get open. That leaves the door open for another receiver to step up….which is way more important with Pickett running the show next year.

      Ffrench can do the jet sweeps next year.

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  7. See that, I have a new article up and in less than an hour it gets twisted to the personal…

    Expect some other personnel moves off the roster, some not voluntary. BTW, The POV was the only media to address Moss’ departure as because he was a ‘problem child’s and dismissed.

    There will be more to follow…as many as seven possibly and as I said two months ago I’ll bet dollar Wirginis is gone by season’s start.

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  8. I am more concerned about the number of offensive rebounds we give up than the number we get. This team shoots a lot of long two’s and three’s from offensive sets that have the team spread around the perimeter. These are not a favorable sets for offensive rebounds…Blair was a special player who played on a team that made its living in the paint. If we take more shots in the paint we will see our offensive rebounding improve as much as it can with our small lineup….Also, I’ll add Stewart to that list of talented young Panthers…H2P

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    1. Stewart looked good the other night. Note that I’m not implying that Carr and Stevenson are the only two that have a chance to be productive; just that thus far they show the good potential.

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  10. here’s an interesting tweet:

    Just randomly noticed: Saquon Barkley and James Conner’s career rushing numbers are pretty uncannily similar:

    Conner: 668 carries, 3733 yards (5.6 YPC), 52 TDs

    Barkley: 653 carries, 3706 yards (5.7 YPC) 41 TDs

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  11. I have had inside information on the Moss matter for quite some time but was not able to share due to confidentiality issues. Reed is right. Moss was certainly a problem child. I may be able to elaborate sometime in the future . My sources are entitled to this professional courtesy.

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  12. Reed’s example above was helpful. The point is we, the commenters, are being asked to comment on the Pitt article at hand and NOT brutally to go after individual commenters personal views. Hence, keep the personal attacks off of the POV, which includes attacking other commenters and Reed himself. In conclusion, focus on the sports not on the people.

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  13. Pittman4ever…I concur. Anyone planning on attending the West Virginia game Saturday and want to meet before for a soda pop or 2 let me know…I usually head to Hemingway’s but am easily persuaded.

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  14. it bums me out that this has become such an ordeal for such a benevolent cat like Reed. the adult discourse was the gravitational pull for me first to the blather and now to POV. sad folks can’t contain themselves as discussing Pitt sports is obviously such a great diversion for so many of us… as for pitt BB, keep your expectations low. They were lucky to get past Lehigh and Huggy is going to flat out have his way against this squad. sure they will be able to lick their ample wounds against the likes of Mcneese state, Delaware State and Townson (we hope) but the ACC is going to be ROUGH

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  15. You know Reed what I am going to miss most about the loss of this blog? Living out here in Washington state I miss my home, my University. Seeing your guys tailgating and talking about getting to know one another from this blog…that was something special for me.

    Seeing you guys talk Pitt on BlueJeans…a roundtable that was good stuff.

    Connecting to my father on both Pitt FB and Basketball…as I wrote to you in my e-mail…I was able to remember that connection from this blog.

    One of the things that made me post this right here, right now…was the story about your 102 year old aunt and here story. The fact she received a Master’s degree in a day and age where something like that was rare for a woman. Hell the right to vote for women had only been around for 7 years prior to her undergrad, 8 years after her graduate degree.

    You know the information age has made us all forget the golden rule. We don’t know each others religion, politics, views from anything more than a few snippets…but what we have forgotten is just how unimportant it all really is in the end.

    I remember holidays with older generation folk who said things that made my eyeballs do a 360. But you know they are now long since gone…and what I wouldn’t give to spend more time with them to have a toast and get the chance to do an eye roll again.

    I am sorry this killed a good thing. I think that we all from time to time suffer from the Troll syndrome, that false bravado of being behind a keyboard and not suffering any consequences for “speaking my mind”. I am not against speaking ones mind btw, however…that filter we used to have when we used social discourse face to face has been obliterated. I liken it to having one too many at a bar.

    Not the same but I am sure that all of us have at one time or another, felt regret on not our message, but how we delivered said message.

    I for one see the end coming for this connection. I have tried to jot a few ideas down for an article, but frankly even one article is a lot of work when you are working, looking for new work, trying to get certified to perhaps be a foster parent, deal with two new dogs who have OCD, and attachment disorder, blah, blah, blah…

    I wish I could get back to the east coast and my home Pittsburgh so that I could meet some of you and get to know what made the Pitt POV a great community. But it’s hard to get the time off in the fall given the industry I am in…they do the holiday blackout period…so not likely I get back.

    I will come on here as long as it lasts and watch Reed to continue to remind everyone the end is near…and all the while I will lament the fact that he was right when he said this was a good thing.

    Bless you all during the holidays and in the new year.

    DaveD

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    1. Dave: Well written comment. Expresses my feelings on so many of your points. I to will grieve at the POVs’ end.

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  16. I was discussing hoops with an insider ( high level donor) . He told me ” Stallings may have a few tricks up his sleeve for Huggins ” Just passing it along.

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    1. Only thing Otis can do is put oil and Vaseline on the court. Huggy is 1000% better as a coach and recruiter.

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  17. The Wirginis story is distressing I have a friend who knows the family. They both live in Fox Chapel. He spoke with Mr. Wirginis last month and said his son would be back.

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  18. Back to football, does Pitt have a running back on the current roster that can get to the outside with speed? Not Ollison, not Hall, too few touches to declare not AJ and not any touches to declare not Sibley. Right now I consider the running back position at Pitt for next season below average. And it can be especially below average if Pitt can’t resurrect an upgraded offensive line for next season.

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  19. The problem is that none of Pitt’s running backs are elusive. We need to find someone like Dion or Ray Graham (Shady is too much to hope for…).

    Call Wanny! He sure had an eye for RBs and DEs.

    Funny how different staffs seem to do well in recruiting certain positions, and really struggle in others – like QB for Wanny…

    Go Pitt.

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    1. Agree on needing that elusive back, hitting the hole where it is not just where the play is called. Need a dose of Le’veon with Hall or whomever. Hall has very little of that and QO the same. You Steeler fans obviously see that contrasting Conner to Bell last night.

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  20. It isn’t going to be the lack of a RB. We have that in Hall and Ollison and maybe Davis.

    it is the OL that will be the real problem for the offense next year.

    O’Neill will be gone, so will Officer, Hodges, and JJS. Who knows if Bookser will be around either.

    Our Center position is a mess and I believe that the OL recruiting has been seriously subpar.

    I think we’ll see more movement from DL to OL and maybe a TE move also.

    Mark these words…our run game goes into the tank next season.

    Our passing game will be a bit better but we lose Weah and Henderson…who may have benefited with a better QB and have unproven (and I think average) WRs on the roster.

    Good news is the defense should be better

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    2. Agree. If O’Neill leaves the o-line is a huge concern next season. None of the bench guys were considered sure things and have played very little. None of the incoming guys are surefire either.

      Rare for true freshman to play a lot anyway. DJ was a consensus 4-star and he was considered a marginal prospect to start. DJ was frequently overmatched his freshman season. Biz struggled at times as a RS-FR.

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  21. You don’t need elusive RBs…just backs who can get positive yardage every play.

    That was Hall’s problem. He’d break a big run then get stuffed or minimal yardage on his many other carries.

    Conner wasn’t a speed back but if I recall he lost yardage on less than 20 carries his whole career.

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    1. I think with a young OL, you do need s RB who can make a tackler miss. Look at the way Shady won games despite not always having great blocking.

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  22. Hard to say QH is making a mistake. Risk of injury at his position is great.

    Will he improve his position by staying? Doubtful.

    He will be missed, a big play threat on a team with few left.

    Hopefully guys will step up.

    There is only one LeVeon Bell, but we could use a RB with lateral moves.

    Heading to the Pete.

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  23. Great running backs also have vision and can anticipate the crack in the line.

    Our guys are straight ahead runners with no lateral moves or vision, and need good blockers in front of them.

    I have expressed my worries about the O-line as well as Reed.

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  25. The kid with the heart condition – George Hill? I believe that he was projected at RB (I may be wrong). He was supposed to be really fast. Not sure of his style. Is he done with football? Or, is there a possibility of him returning and contributing?

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  26. Medical won’t allow Hill to play at Pitt… Probably no other schools either.

    I don’t project recruits’ careers except for special kids like Pickett so I have no idea about Sibley but I also don’t think the fact that he signed with OSU means anything…they ended up pretty much cutting him asap anyway.

    Give him 2 years before he produces. Haven’t seen him carry at all.

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  27. Watching the BB game on espnwatch. 7-2 Pitt, we have 3 TO’s and The Mount has started pressing and we are struggling with it right now. 7-4 now

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  29. Who and where in the name of Frankcan is Mt. Saint Mary’s??? Stallings should be ashamed of himself. Why don’t we just play the Blind School in North Oakland?

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  30. Actually UPitt, my daughter, who is a Marshall Scholar with 2 degrees from Cambridge, England, a degree from Queens University in Northern Ireland, and a PhD from Johns Hopkins is a professor there!!!!! (No kidding). Mt St Mary’s is in Maryland south of Gettysburg.
    But to your point, not a powerhouse but has made it to the NCAA tourney!

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  31. Pittman – Wow! She has enough degrees and smarts for the whole darn POV. Congrats Buddy. I bet you are super proud.

    To my point there is no way a D1 school with a 175M Basketball Arena should be up 5 against this program.

    If there is 1200 people there I’d be surprised. I’m sure Heather is giving away certificates to fans at every whistle.

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  32. UPitt, I also told my daughter if The Mount ever had a chance to beat Pitt, this is the year!
    25-24 Pitt currently!

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    1. Yes, a play-in game by 1 point over New Orleans. MSM thereby exceeded what Vanderbilt had done the season before under KS.

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  38. As I watch this game they are showing clips from previous Backyard Brawls with the Pete jammed with the Zoo. And then this game tonight with 295 people, including players, announcers, coaches, refs, police, and a maintenance man. Quite depressing!

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  40. Pitt pounding MSM on the glass.

    MSM has a roster that resembles Pitt’s roster. 3 seniors, one sophomore and a bunch of freshmen.

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  53. So glad Heather Lyke is in control of this wildfire.

    376 people there. No one cares. Announcers would do better announcing a orgy of sloths.

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      1. I love him now. Way different demeanor. Winning and support from an AD that actually cares unlike trophy and a smile and a certificate Lyke.

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  60. I swear we lose by 30 to Duke’s woman’s team. The lack of heart and talent is gross. Carr may be good in 3 years. Maybe. He is bad and so are these guys with two last names.

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  62. How Otis shoes his face is public or Gallagher for hiring Pumpkin 🎃 head Barnes is sickening. You could offer free steaks and barely get 1500 people.

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  63. As Bob Prince use to say………..We had em all the way!!!
    82-79 in OT!
    Wow!!! What can you say that’s worth saying here? I got nothin’

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  69. They are slow, small and undisciplined. They do play hard. There are glimpses of talent. But when they get into the ACC, they will get embarrassed regularly. They did not look good in the second half. Stallings refusal to effectively use his time outs is maddening. The Mount kept getting wide open looks from 3 point land, and he just let it happen. At some point you HAVE to use a timeout to stem the tide. Gonna be a very long season. Let me thank Herman and Jamie too. They created this mess.

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  72. 6 year extension for beating a Miami team that Clemson let get 17 yards of offense. God Heather Lyke is more stupid than I thought. Only competition we have for Narduzzi is Kent State as a D.C.

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    2. More money for assistants and travel though, which is good. Also, we need to show we pay a HC a few bucks. Texas A&M paid 7.5 mil a year.

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  74. Only 5-7 coach in history who got a extension. Heather has it men! Fear not. Certificates for all and fantas.

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  75. The bottom line is that we are totally mediocre and the The Pete will rarely see more than 6,000 fans for a game. (Duke, The Orange).

    Recruiting will be almost impossible and Heather (if she is still around ( in 2 years) will have to step up and hire a great coach. If you believe that she is up to the job I will sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.

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  76. That stems from a recruits parent and player questioning his contract status. That is an old ploy and it plays really well. Of course, a crooked reporter has to publish that to get Narduzzi a raise. The shell game continues. These people are all in it together.

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  77. Wow, Pitt had a 15 point lead with 8:30 to play. I drop to watch the Pens and the game ended up going to OT?

    Pitt shot 20 more FTs and beat MSM by 16 on the boards, yet the game still went to OT.

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  78. Just got back from the empty Pete. Traffic was a breeze.

    Actually thought the players were better than expected and have some individual talent.

    Coaching is abysmal. No defense whatsoever.

    If Jamie was coaching this bunch they would have won by 20.

    The team looks like a bunch of guys just thrown together, which is what they are.

    Maybe 50 kids in the Zoo.

    It is going to be a very long sad period in Pitt basketball.

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  79. Next up is another team named the Mountaineers. (MSM’s nickname). And those Mountaineers handed #15 UVA it’s first loss tonite 68-61. That could be ugly….Thuggy Bear is going to be going for throat.

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  80. The pov has become a big turd blog. Here I thought it was for pitt fans. I’ll excuse myself to the door.

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  82. You know, it truly is a difficult life for a sports fan when you are a Pitt fan. Watching that basketball game tonight with nobody there, going into overtime with the Mount St. Mary Mountaineers…….and then previously rooting hard every week for our football team, which finishes at an ugly 5-7 largely due to self inflicted bad coaching decisions…..GEESH, WHAT A BUMMER! I honestly don’t know how guys like my good pal Ike can stay so upbeat and rarely get frustrated by our current football and basketball programs…………maybe it’s because I’ve never gotten a free Fanta? I just don’t know.
    it must be time to go to bed! Good night all, I’m sure things will look better Pitt wise in the morning!

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  84. Mark: I’m no fan of Stallings, and I do think he will be gone at the end of the year. You can’t keep a coach when 1000 people a night are coming to see you play, and you are only one of two revenue generating sports at the entire university. But can you not see that he was left no guards and no center by Jamie? There was no division 1 talent on the roster besides Cam, Young and Artis. And Artis was a cancer. Those guys quit on Jamie in 2015 the same way they quit on Stallings last year. You and I are in agreement that Stallings was a bad hire, and he will not be able to rebuild this program. But the demise didn’t happen because he was hired. It was a systematic failure that started when we moved to the ACC and Dixon couldn’t recruit with Duke, UNC, Louisville, etc. The guy can coach, but he ran our program into the ground. He got out because he knew what lie ahead.

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    1. Exactly….Stallings looks like the rat now because he took a nice job offered to him. Dixon & Cyanide were great pals…what does that tell you.

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  85. why do people keep calling Young and Artis a cancer? They were here for 3 years with no issues. Both of them have made the ACC academic list. Young played the entire 2nd half of his freshman year with a fractured back, and played a few games last year with a broken nose. He was also the only basketball player to be selected to serve on the NCAA Overview Committee.

    Now all of a sudden these two are cancers? NO NO NO

    Stallings is the one with the volatile history. He is the one that had a mass player bailout after last season. Cam is a local whose dad is an ex Pitt player, and who can benefit the most by Stallings’ offense. When Stallings was hired in 2016, he pleaded to the incoming recruits to stay with the program, and they did. They are all gone.

    Stallings is Fraud II. Makes $2M but blames the players, not him. At least this year, he knows people would just laugh in his face if he starts pointing the finger. We’ll see how this changes in the upcoming years.

    Yes, he is Pitt coach and deserves support … but he also is going to have start earning it also.

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    1. here is a tweet from last night

      Chris Peak@PantherLair

      Kevin Stallings just got a technical foul for #Pitt. Don’t have to be one of the lip-readers from the Steelers game to see what he said.

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  86. I didn’t call Young anything. But Artis problems, laziness amoung them, are documented. In fairness to him, he played out of position last year, and was not very good at point guard.

    Go back and look closely at what happened at the end of Jamie’s last year here. The players quit on him. I think they lost 6 of their last 9 ACC games.

    Cam knew that the roster was devoid of talent and made the correct personal decision to go somewhere where he could have success his final two years. Good for him. That may or may not be not be an indictment of Stallings.

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    1. After over a month long tryouts, both of them have signed NBA contracts and are playing in the Instructional League (or whatever they call it these days) …. . incidentally, Artis current teammates (last time I checked ) are Khem Birch and Maverick Rowan.

      This is like everything else … there is probably enough blame to go around for all parties.

      But consider this. Stallings took over a team (1) that had 21 wins (2) made the NCAA, and (3) had 6 of the 7 top scorers returning …. yet they finished under .500. His last season at Vandy, he had TWO NBA first round picks and had 19 wins. His replacement came in and also won 19 games.

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    2. I actually saw Artis in a G-League game last month for about 7-8 minutes of game time. I’ve never seen that guy play harder in the dirty parts of the game like defense and rebounding. If he’d have played like that during his career at Pitt he would be as beloved as any Panther of the last 20 years.

      I wouldn’t exactly call Young and Artis cancers, but I do think that their lack of attention to the dirty work may have hurt the team. I mean Dixon never really replaced the size that left with Adams. So those guys really needed to pitch in since a lot of shot blocking and rebounding left him. Zanna did a good job trying to replace Adams the following year. Then Zanna graduated and those two never really replaced Zanna’s contributions. This is where I think JD made a mistake in not playing Luther much more two years ago, relying more on Maia and ANO early in that season.

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  88. Has anyone else noticed that many of the recruits are posting pictures of a schools “full on campus stadium” when they announce the receipt of a scholarship offer? I am thinking an OCS is bigger than anyone thought.

    The administration and fans alike might say, No No never, but the facts are the facts. Pitt needs to grow up and quit playing immature, illogical games. Where is the outcry for spending 120M on a basketball arena that has 1000 patrons in it?

    Tressel (for example) would never accept this. Never.

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    1. Completely agree. Tressel was and remains the one person that I am convinced could turn around the athletic department. Sadly, he continues to remain exiled in Youngstown.

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  90. Yep Huff and full crowds in pics.

    Heather is like a copy salesman Just put in control of running all of Mercks sales worldwide. Way over her head

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  91. I always knew an on campus stadium was a big deal, no surprise there. Aren’t the useful lives of these stadiums only 30 or so years? Well this one is 15+ years old … when the Steelers move or at least threaten to move to Washington County or Cranberry after Heinz Field is obsolete, Pitt better have a plan … start planning now!

    This basketball team needs to start improving fast or else ACC play is going to be sad. We are not good at either end of the court. We desperately need a big guy — but why would a big guy come play for Pitt when our offense is based on having all 5 guys stand outside the 3 point line and they pass the ball around 36 feet away from the hoop, without even looking to make a move to score?

    That 5’5″ point guard for Mount St Mary’s was the best player on the floor last night. I wish he played for us.

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    1. Can’t make a move to score if you don’t have a good handle. Pitt hasn’t has that for a while. JR had a solid handle but wasn’t quick or athletic enough to drive. JWF and Carr have some athleticism but not quite the handle yet….maybe/should improve a bit over the next few years with Carr.

      WVU game will expose all that and be a total embarrassment in a sense worse than Louisville last year. I will be surprised if there isn’t much of the game spent with Pitt having more TO’s than points. All in front of more WVU fans than Pitt fans and louder ones of course…hopefully not throwing coins.

      If I am wrong on this, I will forever praise KS and this cobbled together team, THAT DOES PLAY WITH HEART! Imagine if somehow we had beaten Montana and OK St and were sitting at 7-2. So close but really SO FAR. I do think, if we had a good big man, this team could compete but not sure KS would really do much with one.

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      1. I agree that the WVU game can be a debacle. Will Pitt have more turnovers than points?

        I think Pitt is improving overall but this is bad match-up. Carr has a good handle but often plays out of control when pressured …. he will get better.

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  92. Pitt probably got worried given the Tennessee debacle and want to lock coach in at a reasonable price before salaries begin escalating. I’m more interested in the buyout clause.

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  93. No one and I repeat no one at a decent program hires a 5-7 coach. Hell that is worse than Schiano x’s 50.

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        1. check his record with and without Jameis Winston …. and realize that FSU out-recruits everyone in the ACC yearly and usually in top 10 recruit rankings. I predict failure in his new job.

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          1. I also predict “failure” in the sense that A&M fired Sumlin for “failure” and I doubt Fisher will exceed that by much while paying him much more.

            Anyway…

            3 years prior to Winston under Fisher

            10-4 (lost ACC championship, won bowl game, ranked #17)
            9-4 (won bowl game, ranked #23)
            12-2 (won ACC championship, won bowl game, ranked #10)

            3 years after Winston
            10-3 (lost bowl game, ranked #14)
            10-3 (won bowl game. ranked #8)
            6-6 (yuck)

            FSU was 7-6, 9-4 and 7-6 in the 3 seasons prior to Fisher.

            Take away 2017 (just like taking away a recruited QB) and Fisher’s underachieving looks pretty good. Fisher also had to deal with the distractions of Winston (accused rape and videos) as well as the good college play.

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  94. Long contracts are for recruiting as mentioned above. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is no buyout clause past the 1st contract extension to 2021.

    Narduzzi isn’t going to lock himself to Pitt by agreeing to a big buyout that interested schools have to pay to get him released to go there.

    A big buyout will deter other colleges unless they have huge and deep pockets…which I don’t think are the schools who will be going after him.

    Only coaches who KNOW they will be highly valuable in the future do that… And Narduzzi’s not there yet.

    That was a reason all the buyouts of Pitt coaches have been small.

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    1. Yep. The big story is that he has more money for assistants and recruiting now. One bad year in a full rebuild year doesn’t mark Narduzzi as a bad coach IMO.

      His stubborn blockhead and game decision hopefully will improve some in the coming years….

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  95. I’m interested in what the career staff in Pitt’s AD are thinking at this point about the Pitt commitment to D1 college sports. Reed and titleman, you two are the most connected to administration sources. Is there a sense that things are spinning out of control, or is there more of a “we are on the right track but it will take some time” type of mentality?

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  96. according to PSN, a big haggling point is more money for assistants. Wanny complained, losing Partridge to Wisc and Rhoades to Auburn, etc without much success. Fraud used it as a bargaining point since he had SP over a barrel after the Haywood debacle, and won out.

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  97. My source says duzz did not speak to wirginis until November wirginis was injured water skiing sourcectold me duzz and wirginis are good and he will play next year providing he doesn’t fail any … tests

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    1. FWIW, at an outdoor music festival in the spring of ’74, I can remember sharing a joint with an All-American DT from PSU, who would go on to play 6 years in the NFL. (I knew his girlfriend well but not him). One of my few claims to fame. At a party in the fall of ’76, I was at a Saturday evening party (after OSU hosted UCLA) and saw a couple of Buckeyes who would go on to the pros do the same.

      I also know that former Pitt All-American and long time Cowboys All-Pro Center, Mark Stepnoski was President of the Texas chapter of NORML. My guess is if that pot was being tested back when many of us were in college, there would have been all kinds of suspensions.

      Rules are rules, and players must adhere to them …. no argument here. But if pot is the issue for many of these suspensions (and I don’t know if they are) yet drinking is tolerated and is more acceptable … then it’s a shame IMO.

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      1. Pot, hash and Coke and Ludes were huge on campus during our Greatest Modern day football era.

        Everyone was doing something or other. Speed was big too, to get thru Finals.

        Like

  100. UPitt telling someone here not to complain may be the most hypocritical thing I have seen since the manager of the Andy Warhol museum saying that a proposed Pirates ship to be erected at PNC Park would be too tacky.

    Like

      1. No use complaining. No one cares. Let’s extend a 5-7 coach who has no leverage and recruits like he is in Conf USA.

        Like

  102. Random question – Could an OCS be shoe-horned in to where Trees Hall is currently located? Trees is old and amounts to a student rec center that could be rebuilt in two or more smaller units to be more convenient for students. Then a small OCS could be constructed on that site. There is also vacant land to the west for parking etc. Is that site too small?

    Like

    1. Someone did a very detailed study of this, and yes it could be shoe-horned in up there. You could could rid of Fitzgerald Field House as well and include a student rec center, etc in the basement of the new OCS. Trees Hall pool is very outdated now compared to others in the ACC…so it could be an upgrade there as well.

      Like

  103. “We’re thrilled Pat Narduzzi is our head football coach,” Lyke said. “We are deeply committed to helping him, his staff and his student-athletes achieve at the highest levels in the ACC and nationally.”

    I believe her. One big upset a year and limit the off-the-field problems and here is your 20+ million. Expect 7-5 with a surprise 9-3 ceiling and maybe a bowl win over the next few years. Well, it beats the hoops team in the foreseeable future.

    Like

      1. Like Barnes announcing KS. Competing for Final Fours. Uh, but first we have to beat Mt. St. Marys in OT.

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        1. Hilarious Barvo.

          Only way Stallings makes a final four is if his wife buys them tickets as fans.

          Like

      2. Yeah, don’t know the keyboard “roll eyes” emoji or tongue-in-cheek.
        9_9 :-J
        found them….this internet thing is crazy,,,,I should try it some time…

        Like

  104. Thanks wwb for posting the link. In any communication, you put your most important and valued bullet points first, right? For those that think Pitt is all about academic reputation, take a closer look. Out of the 4 bullet points, only one had to do with academics and it was the last bullet. Priorities appear to be changing. That is great! Finally!!!

    The extension. We really don’t know the details so any comments, other than number of years are probably incorrect. The most important clause for me is the buyout clause for lack of performance or conversely, great performance. Did our athletic Director protect both? You can, but I wonder if she did.

    It would be great if they incentivized the coach for having a recruiting class in the top 10 and top 20 by Rivals/Espn. Incentives are so critical and without knowing the details, we really can’t comment on the extension.

    There is a huge difference between being a Pitt Realist and a Complainer. Upitt leans towards realist, with a slight tendency toward administrative complaints, which is true and here’s why.

    “Narduzzi currently makes $1,827,735 per season, according to the USA Today database. That makes him the 61st-highest paid coach in the nation and the second-lowest of any ACC coach whose salary was reported”. The realist says we pay a little better than 1/2 of all ncaa D1 in paying our coach. Many on here, demand championships and somehow expect 10 win seasons when Pitt pays for NO Championships and 6 win seasons. We get the results we pay for. Matters not the coach. Me, I like a lot about Narduzzi.

    The frustration is pointed at coaches, but when your administration is cheap, the answer lies within. You get what you pay for. Heather Lyke doesn’t have the spine/chops to stand up to Gallagher or the Board and demand the money she needs to have championship teams. Will we luck into one every once in a while, yes, probably. That is not a program. That is a crapshoot and we have experienced crap for 40 years now. Look at the Pete.

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    1. (a) you do not know if Heather has the spine. She’s only been here 6 months or so. For all we know, she may have been able to get more money for the assistant coaches.

      (b) UPitt and realist does not belong in the same sentence

      Like

        1. from PSN: “Peter Thamel of Yahoo! reported on Tuesday that the new contract included a raise for Narduzzi and an increase in the salary pool for his assistant coaches.”

          AS I said above, maybe Heather is making inroads

          Like

    2. Narduzzi had zero experience as a HC and is learning on the job. His salary should be dead last in the ACC for his first 5 years here.

      Like

  105. Great day for Pitt I guess mike vuk was completely wrong saying there is a lyke duzz split . Maybe just maybe duzz and his family like Pitt and like Pittsburgh . I know crazy thought .

    Like

  107. Has anyone else picked up on how the new tax plan can really shake up our BOT? It is calling for taxing the interest on college endowment funds. Wonder if this will cause some soul searching on how and when to spend those bucks!?

    Like

  108. Huff’s last words at 11:27 am are worth repeating: “….That is not a program. That is a crap shoot and we have experienced crap for 40 years now. Look at the Pete.”
    Well written comment, Huff the Magic Ink Pen!

    Like

  109. Like most Pitt people, I agree very good news to extend Narduzzi (yes, a few will always whine bitch no matter what). But that said, PN should take a very close look at his staff before he goes distributing $$$

    Like

  110. So it is smart extending a 5-7 coach with terrible recruiting and who lost to 1-8 UNC and Syracuse and others. I wish I coached, I’d go to Pitt and just give it my best since results don’t matter. You guys can crown this guy all you want. He has the same record at Chryst and Chryst got a program in much worse shape.

    Like

    2. UPitt JV Baseball – I do not remember you ever saying a good thing about any of the Pitt Football coaches, or the AD’s. We all get a good laugh from your comments. Be accurate at least – HCPN has a better record that FHCPC.

      Like

    3. I don’t agree he is a terrible recruiter. It’s not just about the 4 stars. It’s about the quality that the coaches discern. Let’s see what these kids can do.

      Like

  111. Do we know anything about the details of Nard Dog’s contract/extension ? Buyouts, penalty clauses and other such legality.

    Like

    1. from PSN: “Peter Thamel of Yahoo! reported on Tuesday that the new contract included a raise for Narduzzi and an increase in the salary pool for his assistant coaches”

      the only other thing I read is that it extends thru 2024

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  112. @emel Negative. Pitt doesn’t share that information. You have to wait for Pitt to disclose taxes, usually in July. So we won’t know this contract year 1 raise until July 2019.

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  113. Good point upitt. We win one big game a year, consistently lose bowl games and we give out extensions. How about we give him a year or two to prove himself. What’s the rush??

    Like

  114. Giving Narduzzi a 7 year deal is like buying an engagement ring for a girl that looks okay when done up, cheated once, your parents don’t like her, thinks she is amazingly hot and pretentious all because you think she is the best you can get.

    Like

  115. @titleman My assumption on the Vuk article (Duzz/Lykke discord), from the moment he posted it, was that in exchange for leaking that, Vuk got either inside information or a promise of an exclusive tip in the future … or he was used.

    That leak probably helped expedite getting a raise for both himself and the assistant pool. The beat writers cannot report that for fear of being blackballed by the athletic department … a popular blog on the other hand can get a rumor out there to help get something done.

    Reed, to his credit, has mentioned this. Reed prides himself on being un-compromised. A blog taking advertisements will have to cut deals for content to help drive viewership and advertising dollars.

    I’m assuming Duzz’s agent or one of his assistant’s agents leaked this Vuk to help push along the talks.

    Just an assumption … but it appears it was a well played leak.

    Liked by 1 person

      1. LMAO – health??????????? Duzz took over a program on it’s 3rd HC in 5 years with two lost recruiting classes in 2011 and 2012 due to coaching changes in addition to Duzz’s first recruiting class (2014). All three of those classes were scraped together or salvaged with a month or less to go in the recruiting cycle. 2012 and 2013 were the only two fully and properly recruited classes since 2010.

        Additionally, Chryst over-gutted the program and they were coming off of 4 consecutive 6 win regular seasons.

        How quickly people forget what baaaaad shape Pitt was in … and is still recovering from.

        Like

        1. Agree – too many people forget the damage and impact to recruiting and the fan base that the coaching turnover has caused. PN is getting some stability (except for the OC) and raising the bar on talent. Next year will be his team though a tough non-conference schedule is there too.

          Like

        2. Hmm, not sure about lost. I also assume you mean the 2015 class.

          2011
          Lafayette Pitts
          Nick Grigsby
          Artie Rowell
          Ike Bennet
          Khaynin Mosley-Smith
          Ejuan Price

          All became starters. Most were multi-year starters.

          2012
          Rushel Shell
          Adam Bisnowaty
          Chad Voytik
          Bam Bradley
          Daryl Render
          Mike Caprara
          J.P. Holtz
          Ryan Lewis

          All became starters. Shell transferred out under Chryst. Voytik transferred out under Narduzzi.

          2015
          Saleem Brightwell
          Darrin Hall
          Quadree Henderson
          Dane Jackson
          Jazzee Stocker
          Jordan Whitehead
          Ben DiNucci
          Anthony McKee

          All of these guys have started or have been listed in the two deep.

          How bad was the situation really? Wannstedt finished 7-5 in his last season (he didn’t coach the bowl win). Wannstedt’s last two classes were ranked #47 and #33 respectively. Graham’s first class was ranked #58. Chryst’s first class was ranked #47. Chryst’s second class was ranked #35. Chryst’s third class was ranked #44. Narduzzi’s first class was ranked #65. Narduzzi’s second class was ranked #29. Don’t forget Pitt moved to the ACC in 2013.

          One would think attendance, specifically season ticket sales and donations, would drive some of these decisions in the Pitt AD since it’s the clearest indication of fan interest. However that doesn’t seem to be the case with Pitt’s dealings with their football and basketball coaches.

          I have no interest in firing Narduzzi after 2017 but I think the tumult/abyss argument of turnover is much overplayed. It seems odd to extend a coach (and increase his staff comp) coming off a 5-7 season with one significant victory (Miami) that was countered by one significant loss (UNC).

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          1. Barvo – just because they became starters doesn’t mean they should have been starting. Pitt had to start players after all. The multitude of 6 win regular season would seem to agree with me. Plus the lack of depth on Pitt’s roster is pretty astonishing.

            On that entire list, the only players of note are Price, Bisnotoway, Holtz, QH and Whitehead. That group would start for 75% of the ACC an any given Saturday. Everyone else, not so much. Maybe decent players but nothing to build a program off of or argue that they weren’t lost recruiting classes.

            Not to mention, twice in the last 4 years Pitt has had a top 5 youngest team in D1. Depth and experience were severely impacted by the turnover.

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  117. Whatever ‘Sense of Urgency’ that existed for the program to improve….has now been lost.

    I’m not advocating a HC change…..but there is now no big rush for these ppl to get their act in Gear.

    I know it doesn’t work this way in Gov’t or University (same thing almost) …..but it should.

    Like

  118. The rant of sheer stupidity on this blog is embarrassing. A few panties are in a bunch here, may be time for those few to step away from football and tune into HGTV instead.

    Like

  119. Yeah what’s happened here? Train seems to have run off the rails. This site was the place to be for good solid pitt football talk and I counted on it to be just that. Shame. Here is a great thought on this blog from David I bumped up

    “You know Reed what I am going to miss most about the loss of this blog? Living out here in Washington state I miss my home, my University. Seeing your guys tailgating and talking about getting to know one another from this blog…that was something special for me.

    Seeing you guys talk Pitt on BlueJeans…a roundtable that was good stuff.

    Connecting to my father on both Pitt FB and Basketball…as I wrote to you in my e-mail…I was able to remember that connection from this blog.

    One of the things that made me post this right here, right now…was the story about your 102 year old aunt and here story. The fact she received a Master’s degree in a day and age where something like that was rare for a woman. Hell the right to vote for women had only been around for 7 years prior to her undergrad, 8 years after her graduate degree.

    You know the information age has made us all forget the golden rule. We don’t know each others religion, politics, views from anything more than a few snippets…but what we have forgotten is just how unimportant it all really is in the end.

    I remember holidays with older generation folk who said things that made my eyeballs do a 360. But you know they are now long since gone…and what I wouldn’t give to spend more time with them to have a toast and get the chance to do an eye roll again.

    I am sorry this killed a good thing. I think that we all from time to time suffer from the Troll syndrome, that false bravado of being behind a keyboard and not suffering any consequences for “speaking my mind”. I am not against speaking ones mind btw, however…that filter we used to have when we used social discourse face to face has been obliterated. I liken it to having one too many at a bar.

    Not the same but I am sure that all of us have at one time or another, felt regret on not our message, but how we delivered said message.

    I for one see the end coming for this connection. I have tried to jot a few ideas down for an article, but frankly even one article is a lot of work when you are working, looking for new work, trying to get certified to perhaps be a foster parent, deal with two new dogs who have OCD, and attachment disorder, blah, blah, blah…

    I wish I could get back to the east coast and my home Pittsburgh so that I could meet some of you and get to know what made the Pitt POV a great community. But it’s hard to get the time off in the fall given the industry I am in…they do the holiday blackout period…so not likely I get back.

    I will come on here as long as it lasts and watch Reed to continue to remind everyone the end is near…and all the while I will lament the fact that he was right when he said this was a good thing.

    Bless you all during the holidays and in the new year.”

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  121. In counterpoint to UPitt regarding extending HCPN after a 5-7 record, Pitt extended Wannstadt after a worse record and the 13-9 WVU win. I believe the next 3 seasons were the best Pitt has had record wise in the 2000s.Also , Paul Rhodes is likely out of a job at Arkansas (asst HC). Just sayin….

    Like

  122. I can’t stay away and watch all the hard work Reed put into the POV just blow up in smoke. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t think that Reed loves his school and the PITT football team. The good man has brought together many upon many PITT football faithfuls and created a family that will be friends for the rest of our lives.

    Show me someone who can do all that and I will show you a true leader, after-all, isn’t that what he has done his whole life. << No question mark there as that is not a question but a statement.

    I stood back for only one day and read and listened to the exact opposite of what Reed is asking out of us all. Dissent has no place on the POV and dam it, if it is to dissolve then I’m going down in a flame of glory. Too many people depend on the POV as not only a PITT football blog but a gathering of people of the same mind and interests.

    Why some just want to act so contrarian is a complete mystery to me as I believe most of us are all really good people and PITT football fans.

    If you all want the POV to survive, heed this warning. Have Reed’s back as I do and many others and think before you comment. Am I helping or hurting the POV? If your comment is meant as to cause mayhem, then you are the mayhem…

    Let’s talk PITT football…… That’s it Let’s get on the beam…

    We All We Got
    We All We Need
    H2P!

    Like

    1. So I am to blame in your eyes? I love how you are playing a martyr here where you are so off base. I love the POV and Reed and have a relationship with him off this blog. Sorry if a viewpoint not alligning with yours makes you think I am the problem. None of us are that inportant I promise you.

      Like

  124. Eric, some ‘sensitive types’ just come on here to bitch and have agendas, but the majority have good constructive comments. So keep coming back whether grouchy old ladies want you to or not.

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  125. And as bad as Stallings has been, sense of urgency has nothing to do with Lyke, so let’s at least be honest

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    1. So Ike is Eric??? Anything non koolaid and you are the devil around here. 5-7 and lets give him 7 years.

      Like

  127. For recruiting purposes, its helpful to have a coach locked up beyond 4 or 5 years. The fact that it is for 7 is pretty unimportant, because he could leave at any time regardless. In the latter years of the contract, the buyout is likely much less, if there is one at all.

    I have mixed feelings about Pat Narduzzi. The stories we’ve been hearing about recruiting are concerning. But he could have easily lost the team this year, and he didn’t. They outplayed both Miami and Virginia Tech to end the season. As Dr. Tom and I predicted, the young defense would improve as the year progressed. But losing to UNC was a head scratcher.

    Is Narduzzi to blame for the absence of significant contributions from the Senior class? How can he be when the Seniors were recruited by Paul Chryst. When you have three or four Seniors total who start or who are significant contributors, that is a big problem.

    Yet, I think back to last year when he failed to make adjustments in scheme and personnel until late in the season, costing us at least one win, probably more than one. It was maddening.

    Next year will be very telling. Fourth year, all of his own players. It appears that we have a quarterback to build around. Lots of depth and some emerging talent on defense. Hopefully Paris Ford can be a difference maker. The offensive line is a huge concern, especially if Brian O’Neill leaves as expected. Penn State will not be as good, we get Wake Forest as our crossover opponent, and our Coastal opponents are all beatable. We should be disappointed with anything less than 8 wins.

    All one has to do is look at the incredible instability of the Basketball program, or remember the stretch of years where we had 4 football coaches (Wanny, Haywood, Graham and Chryst) in 6 years. Looking at those situations, overall I’m happy that we extended Narduzzi today. I do think that he MUST improve his recruiting if we are going to compete regularly for the Coastal title, which unquestionably should be the goal.

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  128. Martyr? You think what you want but you ran this blog into the ground… Hope you’re happy or maybe it was Nordy, Gallagher, Long, Pederson, Barnes, Heather, Stallings or everyone else you blame constantly.

    Like a poster once said. Upitt probably blamed the AD every-time he struck out. Turn the page Mark, your tale has been told and get on with your life… with much love . .ike

    Like

    1. You and your cpnstant lovefest and yinzerisms for Narduzzi tire on everyone. If you were 40 I’d show you something Pappy.

      Like

    2. Ike,
      One reason this blog has gone sideways is because you’ve sucked all the air out of room with your non-sensical boosterism.

      Like

  130. I fessed up and are you now threatening me? Maybe that was your problem with the baseball team. wrong attitude dude.

    Like

  133. Overall I think its a good thing. Its for stability and perception. One may not think Nard Dog will ever consistently get Pitt 9-10 win seasons (I have my doubts), but this does show commitment to the football program so I applaud Heather for getting approval to do it. I guess all the talk about the front porch got to Gallagher and of course the Fantas to Heather.

    It was an embarrassment for Pitt’s coach to be paid in the bottom. This rectified the situation. Other assistants who are looking for new jobs or career opportunities will now find Pitt more attractive. And more money for assistants and recruiting was very much needed although we need MORE.

    I’m sure Nard Dog can now focus more on the job at hand. Its a huge relief for him, provides greater financial stability and relieves some stress for the time being.

    But he now has to get Pitt winning Division titles and going bowling or else Pitt will cut him lose assuming their commitment is to excellence in football…the occasional ACC conference title.

    Hopefully this helps move Pitt beyond mediocrity. Good coaches are hard to find and I think Nard Dog is good and can be very good given time.

    Now what the heck is going on with the basketball program is a whole nother story and far more cause for concern.

    Like

    1. Why? He has zero experience and is getting to learn on the job. If this was a union he’d still be an apprentice.

      Like

  134. I love you to much Ike. Email you once to hotel. Home in 4 weeks. We need to go to bar in your town.

    Like

  135. Mark and Ike: I love what both of you bring to the table on this blog. You are polar opposites, but each offer insightful opinions about Pitt Football. However your continual sniping at each other is Exhibit A of why Reed tired of the POV.

    See, POV is short for “point of view”. Reed encouraged everyone to share their own. But is it possible to share your point of view without attacking others? Many of us seem to be able to do it with very little effort. You two need to try harder.

    And this rant is not directed at Ike and UPitt exclusively, and I’m sorry to single you two out. Too many posters failed to heed the multiple warnings that Reed communicated which set forth clearly the rules of the Blog.

    I have so very much enjoyed the passion of the Pitt fans on this blog. I have loved meeting many of you at the Fran and Friends POV tailgates.

    I too am friendly with Reed outside the pages of this Blog. It sickens me to see the most passionate Pitt man of all of us disgusted to the point that he feels that he has to step away from the POV.

    Grow up, and maybe we’ll get to enjoy the real POV blog next spring or fall.

    Hail to Pitt!!!

    Like

  137. Jesus, I’m Johnny come lately, but WTF? Peace brothers.

    Upitt doing his Mike Gundy impression “I’m 40, I’m a man”. Come on guys. Stop!!

    Pitt hoops is 5-4 Whoo! Duzz just signed a meaningless 7 yr extentension! Whoo Effing Hoo!!!!

    All is good for us Pittiodts!

    All kidding aside, this is what’s driving Reed nuts. It’s the holidays and I know we ain’t bowling, but Duzz got extended and we may, just may have found a QB.

    Plus Pitt hoops is 5-4 and you heard it here 1st…they will lose by less than 30 on Saturday to the Hoopies in the Backyard Massacre( ‘er I meant Brawl).

    Good Times. Play nice. Please.

    Like

  138. Dan72:

    I am a proud Pittiodt!! Always have been! Always will be!

    It’s usually a curse, but sometimes when you least expect it, you say” Damn I’m a proud Pittiodt!!”

    Happy Holidays from one Pittiodt to all!!

    We all we got, We all we need”…Ike.

    Like

  139. I approve of the extension. It ain’t easy to win here. Low donations, low attendance, low admin support, yet many with championship expectations.

    Yet Duzz’s record through 3 years compares favorably to all coaches since Sherrill. Against pretty tough schedules versus historical averages.

    Like

  140. I’m all for Coach Duzz staying for at least 7 years. I think he’s an excellent coach for Pitt.

    But enough of that crazy talk.. I have seen the light and I want to publicly declare two things:

    I will no longer accept Pitt losing; and
    I demand that Pitt wins.

    There, I feel better now. And I’ve done my part — clearly I will no longer accept mediocrity. I understand that someone in the Pitt Athletic Department reads this blog so I consider my stance to be conveyed to the powers that be…

    Hail to Pitt! Let the winning begin.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Do you mean in both football AND basketball?
      Now let’s be reasonable, basketball is going to be a while, unless you mean, well, uh, 7 or 8 times a year… 😦

      Like

  141. I prefer the bromance of Iek and UPITT to a staged “cage match”…wonder what the Vegas odds would be on that one? If this has a happy ending it will be better than “Its a wonderful life”. Who will play Reed, Ike and UPITT in the movie version of “Its a wonderful blog?” Peace pipe comes out, baby!

    Like

    1. I’d prefer a young and dashing Brad Pitt. Ike wants Paul Newman but may be problems with that.

      I think Sean Connery for Reed but add 8 inches to his height. Not sure he is still alive.

      Like

      1. Haha. Connery is alive but formally “retired” from acting. I actually checked recently because I was wondering the same thing.

        Like

  142. I just did! 87 years old. Wow.

    Ike still needs one since Paul Newman is making Salad Dressing and Sauce in Heaven now.

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    1. That’s a sad article. Pitt bball has gone from a No.1 seed in 2011 to being a mid-major in 6 years.

      Same thing happened to the once great football program, in a couple short years….we went from the Penthouse (1975 thru 1983)….to the Outhouse.

      Pitt has made an Art Form of destroying our 2 main programs over the years. 😦

      Like

  146. It’s a backyard brawl Saturday with Pitt v WVU in wrestling in early afternoon then BB in the evening. Pitt will pull out the win in wrestling and will lose in BB.

    Pennsylvania colleges are well represented in the NCAA D1 wrestling rankings with 5 schools represented: Pitt, PSU, Lehigh, Edinboro and Lockhaven. That fairly normal.

    Like

  147. Let me get this straight. Vuk spews complete garbage about an alleged Duzz-Lyke riff when every indication is that none existed and we blame Duzz and his agent. If that is the case. Wow just wow.

    Like

  148. Things are not working out very well in Chapel Hell for CJ

    Most unfortunately, you feel terrible for Cameron Johnson and his family. This is a player who tried extremely hard to get to play basketball at North Carolina, and didn’t just leave his previous school—he left his hometown of Pittsburgh to come to Chapel Hill. Now, at the start of what should be a triumphant season for him, he’s encountering a string of bad luck, with a neck injury keeping him out of the opener and now a knee injury.

    Hasn’t played a minute yet !

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  149. @Titleman … Lol – No blame. That’s just how the game works. Duzz got an extension and a raise for his assistants not too long after a popular blog leaks info that Duzz and Lykke are disagreeing about a contract extension and a raise for his assistants … Hmmm. Sounds like accurate reporting to me … with leaked info (my guess from Duzz’s agent or an assistant’s agent) … If you read the article, it sounded like propaganda at the time … and I said as much then …

    If you don’t think that’s how the game works, you’re being a bit naive.

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